How to Stop People Pleasing and Manage ADHD Rejection Sensitivity at Work

H: As with every other conversation we've had, Dave, we have been talking so long, and I hope we will remember enough of the good stuff now that we've officially pushed the record button. Today, we are going to unpack life lessons and lessons for work from a very special book that you introduced me to. It's not an ADHD book, but, man, is it full of lessons for those of us with ADHD. Queue us up and kick us off.

G: Well, the book is The Courage to be Disliked. It's about the teachings of Alfred Adler. He was a medical doctor and a psychotherapist, like, in the eighteen hundreds. He was, like, buddies with Freud and all that. But it talks about his kind of philosophy of life. And there were so many pieces of the book that literally stopped me in my tracks. And remove the ADHD for a minute. I think for anybody, how we behave, the habits that we acquire over time, the way we think about life professionally and personally.

But then I got to thinking there were so many lessons, and I'll put this disclaimer on it, maybe a little controversial, so let's just throw that out there, that I think people with ADHD can take away from the book. Not everything. Like, there's plenty of things in the book that people may disagree with. But I just found that there were so many things in the book that not only resonated with people at ADHD, but just, like, stop me in my tracks thinking this guy's living with me, you know, not the people that wrote the book. It's just like, holy crap, you know, and subtly, like, called the person reading the book out, you know, including myself and, I'm not easy to admit things like that.

H: Well, starting with the title, Dave. I mean, you and I know each other pretty well, and a lot of people with ADHD are a little sensitive, shall we say. A lot of folks identify with rejection sensitivity and other kinds of sensitivities. And, I don't know how many of us would knowingly, willingly, joyfully pick up a book with the title, The Courage to be Disliked. You would, I would. That just grabs my attention and I'm thinking, oooooh, because you're right.

It is or they're right, the authors. It is an act of courage to be willing to be disliked. Now some people go out of their way to be disliked, and that's a whole other conversation. But being willing to be who you really are, and if that means some people dislike you, talk shit about you, reject you, don't wanna hire you, don't wanna date you, don't wanna be your friend, that's okay.

G: Right. Right. But I think you and I, I think, had maybe a couple conversations about the whole ADHD and rejection piece of our brain, wherever that resides in our skull, you know but that is one of the main discussion points in the book is what Adler calls the separation of tasks, and it's a weird way of putting it.

H: It is a weird way of putting it. I didn't get it when I first looked at that. I'm like, wait, what?

G: You know, people come to you and come to me, and they're like tasks. I can't finish this report for my boss, or I can't do this thing for the client, or I can't you know, we think about tasks in more of a mechanical like discussion, right? Or task avoidance. His discussion about tasks is what is yours and what is mine? So for example, I'm going to communicate to my client or boss or co-worker x, y, and z. Okay, it is my task to do that effectively. It is not my task to have them understand or even agree with my communication.

And there are several examples of that, but your job isn't to make somebody else feel a certain way, if that makes sense. It's like and I think we get tied up in that so much. Like how come this person doesn't like me? How come this person isn't getting back to me? How come my boss is always, you know, riding me or treating me different than others right?

H: Here's a classic one because so many of us have time blindness issues, or as I prefer to say, time optimism because I always think I have more of it than I actually do. And so many people will say, that person is always late. He doesn't respect me. It's like, first of all, that's making a big old assumption. But whether you have ADHD or not, there are many reasons for someone to be late. Time blindness is one of them. It's common to folks like us.

But are we responsible for that other person feeling disrespected or believing that our lateness is a sign of disrespect when that's not our intention? And there's many other potential explanations. I don't feel responsible for that being their interpretation. And according to this theory, that's not my task. My task is that I agreed to have this meeting. Maybe my task is to make every effort to be on time. But if I'm late and the other person's interpretation is that's a sign of disrespect, my task does not include how they feel about my lateness right?

G: No. Exactly. I mean, bottom line, your task is not to be responsible for or manage the emotions of others, so to speak.

H: So and yet we teach this. We condition this in our culture. I mean, you hear parents and your parents probably told you that you might have even told your kid this. Don't take the last cookie, you're gonna make other kids feel bad. Or don't say that, you're gonna hurt your feelings.

G: I always who takes the last cookie.

H: Well, no, I'm somebody's gotta take fight and put the rest back, which is probably worse. But it's that, you know, we teach kids that they are responsible for how other people feel so don't do that, you'll hurt her feelings. It's like, wait a minute but I'm not responsible for other people's feelings.

G: This part of his philosophy, the separation of tasks, one would argue is directly linked to people pleasing, which many in the ADHD community and others, we don't own people pleasing. But there is a direct connection between I people please because part of me wants to make sure the other person feels good and doesn't dislike me, or feel disrespected, or think that I am less than the other person, right? What he talks about also, if you dig into this, is the relationships which we can talk about, but vertical and horizontal relationships. His argument is that all relationships should be equal, whether you're the CEO or the janitor.

H: Yes. And also, what I think is really fascinating, and I would love to get into a little deeper, is the premise in this book that and also in Adlerian psychology, that, we are all fundamentally good, and we should, assume, you know, all humans have equal value and that we are all fundamentally good. And yet, the majority of us are insecure. In the book, The Big Leap, which I refer to quite often, this concept of upper limiting and this belief that the majority of humans have, that they have a fundamental flaw. And in this book, this notion that, I'm fundamentally flawed. I'm insecure. I feel inferior to others. And what that ends up doing is not only translating into all kinds of inauthentic behavior to get people to like us or at least not dislike us, it also propels us into behavior where we are attempting, subtly and not so subtly, to be superior to others so that we can kind of counteract that insecurity.

G: I want people listening to understand that I am not a psychologist. I didn't spend five seconds in medical school okay? So there's so many layers of that so for example, the inferiority complex that he talks about or the or the feelings of inferiority, which I actually believe he distinguishes between those two as well. But he talks about how, you can let inferiority stop you in your tracks, thinking, you know, okay, here's this guy running this business over here, he's killing it. I'm running the same type of business, and I'm not killing it so that means I'm inferior to him.

He's got all the business, I shouldn't try anymore okay? Feeling inferior, you're comparing versus maybe using the inferiority to some extent to maybe, push your drive. So, for example, you go in the gym, there's a couple people in there that are in there all the time. They're very healthy. They're very fit. Maybe you're not so much. You have room to grow in the fitness and health category.

H: This is theoretical. We're not talking personal experience, right?

G: Well, no. There's a lot of people who look much better in the gym than I do. But can you use that as a driver to motivate you to maybe do better rather than basically said, oh, that guy owns health, and there's no more health left in the world.

H: He took more of his share, there isn't enough for me.

G: Yeah. So I think there's it's how you it's how you look at your view of things through that lens of being inferior. That I believe make the difference, and he kind of distinguishes that. So I think he also he distinguishes, and forgive me because I can't remember exactly how he drills down, but he said there's a difference between feeling inferior and an inferiority complex, which you may know more about with your professional training.

H: Well, I think it kind of remind I mean, there's so many crossovers to other things that we've studied, other things that we're aware of. I was reminded of, like, the growth mindset versus the fixed mindset and how they talk about, that our job here as human beings is not to do better than others. Our job is not to be approved of by others. I refer to that as, like, outsourcing your self esteem. Our job is not to compete. Our job is to accept ourselves, accept others, and contribute. And while that may sound like really, I don't know, Pollyanna-ish, it certainly would solve a lot of problems we're having in the world if we could do anything to approximate that mindset.

Like the growth mindset, fixed mindset. Fixed mindset is, these are the cards I was given. I have ADHD. I have dyslexia. I have this, I have that you know? My parents didn't know what the hell they were doing or whatever. And this guy over here, this gal over her he or she has all these advantages that's fixed. So I guess I'll just lower my expectations, and it's like…

G: But we need to, as people who, ask us for assistance, learn how to infiltrate that I believe a little bit, because there are a lot of people with ADHD and maybe in the neurodivergent community, so to speak, that do have that fixed mindset, and it may not be a positive. One of Adler's huge things is, you know, you can change your life. I would separate that and distinguish that by you and I also know well, that sometimes when somebody's brain is wired differently, and we know many of them, you can't force things, you've got to work with the energy, you've got to work with, you know, with that type of, person and find ways to figure out how to work with their style of thinking, etcetera, etcetera.

So but you can change so the person who says that, well, I can't get to work early because I've got to do x, y, and z. And then I get distracted by Candy Crush and all this stuff and then I don't get in the office till eleven. And they're like, well, I gotta do this. I gotta do that. And that's when you start to say, okay, there's a little bit of bullshit going on here okay? You can change. You don't have to play candy crush and be late for work, you really don't. Is it a process to wean yourself off it? Sure, I would argue that. But his philosophy is that you can change if you want to change.

H: Now this is where it starts to get a little controversial. And what we'll get into some other more controversial stuff in a few minutes.

G: But you and I have also we have talked to so many people who, I guess, to be blunt, make excuses for how they operate. Correct?

H: Yes. Yes.

G: So because that's the way I am, okay.

H: Yes and that is challenging to work with because if someone says, you know, I am what I am, you know, it's like and whether they attribute it to ADHD, they attribute it to childhood trauma, they attribute it to their circumstance, either their nature, nurture, whatever, The belief that this is who I am. This is how I am. These are the challenges that I have, and that's that, and then hires a coach, that's really challenging because, you know, you have to believe to some degree. You have to be willing to believe to some degree that you can change. Otherwise, why would you engage the services of someone whose skill set is largely devoted to helping people change so they can reach their goals?

G: Because I think many people who contact somebody who does what you and I do, whether it's you, me, anybody else. Number one, I think they obviously contact a coach or a mentor or whatever they are called too late. I'm not saying too late in the fact that there's no hope, but now they're operating in panic mode, and I gotta get my shit together and everything else. And then they start getting on sessions with somebody, and I think they get easily frustrated. This is my experience because the person that you started to work with did not wave the magic wand, did not solve all your problems, I think, quickly. That's my controversial assessment of that.

H: Dave, that's fair because and I think it's one of the reasons why it's important for folks who do what we do to do a good screening. And one of the questions I ask when someone books a consultation with me before I've even met them, has anything happened recently that's made getting help feel urgent? I don't know what the exact words are. Similar to the question I used to ask as a therapist. Because, you know, there's no such thing as adult onset ADHD. If you have ADHD, you've always had it. You might not have been diagnosed to you with 30, 40, 50, or beyond, but you've always had it.

It didn't just you know, arrive on the scene at some point in your life. So you've been working with it or not. Your entire life, you've had workarounds, you've had, you know, strategies effective, ineffective. You've been dealing with this your whole life. And at some point, you develop the belief that, okay, now what I'm experiencing is no longer tolerable. Now I need to do something about it. And to your point, whatever we've been tolerating for however long we've been tolerating it, once that becomes unacceptable and we feel, like, the need to do something about it, that doesn't you're absolutely right.

It doesn't necessarily mean that you then have the will and the patience to unlearn all of the ways that you've been tolerating it functionally, dysfunctionally, so that you can get better. You might just want things to change, but you might not want to be part of the change process. And that's what I refer to as the magic pill. Or some somebody kinda wants us to be the fairy godmother or smack them over the head with the magic wand. They don't wanna do the work to change. They want to have changed. They wanna be on the other side of that change.

G: But they also may not be in a place to be able to change just yet. You know, we've talked about burnout a million times. Some people, as you say, they operate in a certain mode for ten fifteen years, they have ADHD, they're in a demanding career. And it has finally caught up with them. You know, some people burn out take a year or two to recover. So they either quit their job, or they cut back or they take a leave of absence, they contact somebody, they may not be ready. Mentally speaking to do some of the work that is required to get some agency back in their life.

H: Did you find it difficult to accept or adopt the belief that we can change? Was there ever a time when you didn't believe that? Either didn't believe it in general or didn't believe it for yourself and you learned to believe it or simply decided to believe it?

G: No. Because I don't think that was the brick to the side of the head that I got out of the book. I always knew that to some extent, we can change in certain ways. I've used this example before where I used to study martial arts years ago. I went to like a traditional American karate kickboxing school. But the owner of the dojo always liked to experiment in things, and he started experimenting in what they call Gracie Jiu Jitsu, which is ground fighting. So karate and kickboxing obviously are all standing up and what have you.

So but I always just because I was a skinny kid growing up, but I always used to tell people, oh, my God, if anybody ever got me on the ground, I'd be dead because I can't wrestle. I can't fight in the ground. Well, come to find out when I started actually doing it in class, I was actually really good at it. And there was a phone call once where when we were doing some of these classes where and my wife and I were going together, and he called and my wife picked up the phone and she goes, is Dave coming to class tonight because he's my best ground fighter.

H: What?

G: So yeah, that is and I'm not patting myself on the back by any means, but that just goes to show you that we actually do tell ourselves things that are untrue. I'm not gonna say lie to ourselves, that's harsh. But we are pretty good at, giving ourselves a narrative that can be disproven, if you will, would you agree?

H: Absolutely. I recorded a solo episode a few weeks ago, Dave, about cognitive bias and the mind traps and the thought loops that we're all narrating our existence moment to moment in our heads. And there's either a big gap between how we perceive reality and the objective reality. There is, or it might be a smaller gap. But my opinion, and I think this was reflected in the book as well, is that we are all experiencing our own reality. We all have our own individual reality. It's contextual. It's based on history.

It's based on our belief system, our biases. I refer to it as our beliefs, biases, and our blind spots. And everybody has a different set of those. And yet these two authors say that all problems are interpersonal. So it's like, hold on a second and trauma does not exist. Hold on a second, full stop. I may be up in my head telling myself stories, and you may be up there in your head telling yourself stories, and everybody else may be doing the same thing, but what do you mean all problems are interpersonal?

G: So I actually 80% agree with that, because in the world of ADHD and the busy professional, and the kids at home and the family life and all the other things, aren't we worried about other people when we, possibly are missing a deadline at work, or we screwed something up for a client, or we blew off a volunteer opportunity when somebody was depending on us, aren't we more concerned about what other people are thinking about our, the way we operate, the way we, whatever. Because that's what it comes down to. Like, oh, if I don't show up, they're gonna think I'm an asshole, you know? Or then they can't depend on me, and how's that gonna make me feel? And if I give the client the wrong thing, he's gonna be pissed off at me, and now he's not gonna trust me anymore.

H: He's gonna think I'm an idiot. I'm gonna lose the account or at least lose his trust and respect.

G: Yeah. Well, my boss, if you work for somebody else, my boss is gonna put me on a performance improvement plan, or he's not gonna trust me anymore, or she's not gonna trust me anymore. So I would argue unless you are on a deserted island and starving, the problem of having food, obviously, is an issue. But generally speaking, our day to day challenges are those with other people right? You know, it's one of the books that I, use in my coaching practice, and I have an exercise that I give clients is based on the work of Gretchen Rubin and the four tendencies.

We did an of episodes about this. And the reason why I think it's important is because the whole premise of that framework, the four tendencies framework, is how we deal with expectations, our own and others. And the vast majority of people are obligers, which means they will let themselves down six ways from Sunday, but they are hard pressed to disappoint others. So their priorities, what they focus on, where their attention goes, is all about meeting the expectations of others.

G: How many people with ADHD do you know that are divorced at least once?

H: Well, I practice a few, so I would say, starting with that.

G: That's not where I was going with that.

H: Yeah, okay. But I mean, I'm yeah, actually quite a few. Yeah, quite a few.

G: Yeah. So that's another piece of that right? You wouldn't have that challenge with a marriage unless there was challenges with the relationship with that person right?

H: Well, I'm gonna take myself off the hot seat real quick, like, but I will just move it to the workplace. And so, I mean, I'm very open about the fact that I'm in my third marriage. So, but I will tell you, many of us, I would say the majority, change jobs far more frequently than is the norm. And whether that's quitting or getting fired, or if you happen to be self employed, the number of times we change our niche, we reinvent, we rebrand, we burn it to the ground and start over.

G: Didn't wanna serve a client because they're pain in the ass, which I think healthy. I think it's healthy.

H: Agreed. The number of people with ADHD who are self employed who say, help me start a business that I can run by myself because I don't wanna manage people?

G: Yep. I left a very good job twenty years ago, because of the relationship I had with the new person who I had to report to. And I loved my job, I love the work. It was a nonprofit. It was one of the most well known nonprofits in the world. I left because there was a shift in the org chart, so to speak. And a new person was brought in and, the two of us did not get along. We banked heads. I would argue that person had no idea what he was doing, but that's me and I left. And I've told people that if that didn't happen, I probably would still be there.

H: So bringing together the threads that we have been teasing out from this book, and how you've learned from it, and as you say, it stopped you in your tracks, and the fact that, and I would agree as well that all problems are fundamentally interpersonal problems. In my terminology, everything is relationship. Everything is relationship. You have a relationship with your business. You have a relation not to even mention human relationships with other people. But when we're self employed, we have a relationship with our business. We have a relationship with our customers.

We have a relationship with our competitors. Even if it's just in our heads, it's a relationship. We have a relationship with vendors. We have a relationship with SaaS products that we use to run our company. If you don't think it's a real relationship, just pay attention how many times you are screaming at your technology because it's failing to live up to your expectations in that moment. So do you think people with ADHD have more difficulty in relationships than neurotypicals do?

G: Oh, absolutely. I firmly believe that. Not everyone, let's not put our money in it.

H: It’s not in the diagnostic criteria.

G: No. And some people are super good at relationships. I think that's where some of the strengths of ADHD come out. For example, some people are good in sales because they love to talk to other people okay? Some people aren't so good at sales because as Adler talks about, they have a fear of judgment, and they can't cold call, because they're worried about damaging a relationship that doesn't even exist right? So, but I think, yeah, generally speaking I think we have a love hate relationship with relationships.

H: And with being human and with peopling, interacting with other humans. I mean, if you just take even those of us who've been moderately successful in our lives with ADHD, we've still taken on some damage. We've still got scar tissue all the way back to childhood from feeling misunderstood, from being asked, why did you do that? Or what were you thinking? Or what's wrong with you?

G: No. And I've always used the example of, like, the bad report cards. And I think once you are able to, possibly get past that, that's probably not the right word, but I think you know where I'm going. I'm not telling people to get over it. But when you finally are, at peace with your report cards, like, I can laugh at my report cards now because I'm like, holy shit, they actually really did say the things they said you know? But that is like you say, is it trauma? I don't know, but it's certainly something that follows us into adulthood.

H: So it is sticky. And, you know, I think, especially things from early childhood, you know, the more years we are on the planet, the more tread we have on our tires, the more stuff there is in our heads. But when we're little, there's not much planted there. And those seeds sink deep and start to form our self-concept. And one of the things in this book that I absolutely agree with, and it reminds me of so much of what I've studied both in coaching and in psychotherapy, is that, learning to approve of ourselves no matter what, learning to offer other people unconditional acceptance no matter what, and staying in the present moment.

So we're not up in our heads thinking about what how they did us dirty in high school, and we're never gonna forgive them or, you know, I can't wait until, you know, this this couple is definitely getting divorced. And I am gonna rejoice when I see that happen because I can see it coming from a distance. Like, that's not living in the moment and just the basics of I accept me, it's almost like Sesame Street. I feel like we need to go back.

G: Exactly. We need some Muppets with us on this call you know? I think but you kinda took the words out of my mouth is that that that's where he says we are the most happy and fulfilled is living in the present. That is very difficult for some people. Because we do keep bringing up the past and for busy people, maybe we're worried about the future. So, like, you know, is my business gonna continue to grow? Is my career trajectory gonna continue to go in the right direction? You know, can I pay my mortgage in six months, those types of things. You know, it's very difficult for anybody, remove the ADHD or not, is to, like, live day to day in the present. It's super difficult. I struggle with it too.

H: I've been studying meditation for quite a few years, and it definitely helped with that. But, it's why, you know, I think we've talked about this, previously. My program used to start with self awareness, you know, these tools and assessments to increase our self awareness, and then it would move into tools for increasing our self acceptance. And a couple years ago, I realized I have to reverse the order, Dave, because I think if we can't just unconditionally accept ourselves, make the decision to do it, and then learn how to do it and practice doing it, we won't have the courage to develop more self awareness.

It will be fucking scary to become more aware of who we really are if we don't choose to accept ourselves first, no matter what. It's like, why would I want it's one of the reasons why so many people don't wanna go to therapy. So I can become even better acquainted with how screwed up I am. No, thank you. It's like but if you can make the decision to accept yourself unconditionally, accept others unconditionally, and stay in the moment and not take responsibility for what other people are doing or even for what other people may or may not think of you. It sounds deceptively simple. It sounds like it should be easy. It's probably the hardest work any of us could ever attempt to do, ADHD or not.

G: No. And we talked about in the book. I don't think I used this exact phrase, but, you know, I've used this in in other scenarios. Is this like I truly believe that assholes don't burn out they don't get burned out. Because an asshole really doesn't care what other people think of them. I'm not suggesting, hey, alright, this is the asshole episode. That's not so don't mistake what I'm saying.

But generally speaking, I think that people who really don't care, generally what other people think and their opinions and what they think of them, I don't believe that they get to burn out like other people. So a lot of burnout is, as you know so well, is just that piece of it. We stay late because we're afraid what our boss or our client's gonna think, or our coworkers, or, you know, etcetera. We take on extra work because we don't wanna disappoint our boss. So we're afraid of what they might think or even if it's made up.

H: And to your point that assholes don't burn out, narcissists don't suffer either. They make the people around them suffer, but because they lack empathy and they don't take responsibility for, you know, the effect of their behavior on others, they're blissfully free of stress and struggle while the people around them and, imposter syndrome?

The only people who have imposter syndrome are actually legit. The true impostors don't have impostor syndrome. The ones that are shamelessly self promoting and don't really know what they're doing, they have no problem making outrageous claims that they can't back up because they don't have impostor syndrome.

G: Yeah. But I might gently push back on that one because I learned public relations running my restaurant. I had a franchise in Boston. The company was notoriously bad at marketing and everything associated with marketing, so I went out and did a lot public relations wise. I worked with, the Boston Pops. I worked with rock stations. I worked with all these, you know, I built my business through PR. Never sent a PR classroom. And then, out too long of a story, but I ended up at Special Olympics running public relations, and I worked from here to China.

I always had in the back of my head because people worked at these PR agencies and these high rises in Boston, and maybe they had a master's degree and all that stuff that somehow they were better than me. But I spent more time in front of TV cameras than any of them combined and I got I got that experience. I had a massive Rolodex of reporters and TV producers and everything else. And when I went out and opened up my PR firm, that became extremely valuable because CEOs tapped into me to get them on TV and other places.

So, but I always felt like I wasn't not always, but there were times I felt like, oh, well, I'm not working at that big PR firm that charges people $25,000 a month, and I'm not sitting in that glass office and all that stuff. So I would, I did struggle with that. I knew deep down that I had the experience that they did not have. But there was a little bit of imposter syndrome. So I would gently disagree in some fashion to that.

H: Yeah. Well, it's like a yes, and I think that we often have great conversations where we agree about 80% of the time. And the best parts of the conversation are the fringes because we respect and enjoy each other enough that we can disagree without feeling threatened. And I think it's really speaks to the major premise of this book. I don't take responsibility for whether you like me or not. I don't take responsibility for whether you agree with me or not. If I can just say, well, I think my opinions are valid.

I think your opinions are valid. We make each other think. It doesn't have to be transactional. And I think that's where a lot of people get into serious trouble is when we believe we're inferior or feel inferior, and then we think we have to behave in a way that makes us superior so that we can feel better, Everything's a competition. Everything's transactional. There has to be a winner and a loser. And if someone has to lose so that you can win, you're losing too. You just don't realize it yet. Because eventually, you alienate people. You don't have any close connections. You don't have community. You know I mean, that's a very scary thing.

G: I think you mentioned superiority, and I think maybe we save the most controversial piece for last is that and you and I have talked about this before where I think a lot of people, maybe in the neurodivergent community, portray that you don't understand me. Oh, you don't understand what I'm going through.

H: Yes.

G: And they talk about in the book, and Adler talks about this, is that sometimes we use that as leverage to distance ourself from other people, because we don't want any, even if it's minimal pressure, applied to us. I'm struggling with this right now, and you need to not put any demands on me, so to speak. And I'm gonna tell you right now, that's controversial. There's people saying, oh, I'm gonna go at Dave right now on his Twitter account or what have you. Go ahead.

H: They're coming for you, friend.

G: They're coming for me. But I did the same thing, and you and I have talked about me taking care of an aging parent. Yeah, okay and it is extremely stressful. And that is the biggest brick to the side of the head that I got listening to this book, is that I was doing that. I was subtly conveying a message to people around me that you don't understand what I'm going through right now.

H: But hold on, first of all, they don't.

G: They don't but I was using it as a leverage point to make sure people wouldn't, apply too much pressure to me, for example. So and I think, you know, the more demands you put on me, the more my stress is gonna boil over because I'm dealing with this other thing in my life.

H: Yeah and you know what I think we don't even have to have an aging parent or other life struggles. Coming back to an earlier part of this conversation, when we believe the fact that we have ADHD and the fact that it adds various struggles and complexities to our life, we are entitled to feel different, misunderstood, judged. And whether those things are true or not due to, you know, cognitive dissonance, if we believe I'm different, and people don't understand me, and I feel judged, and I have to mask.

And I can't really show people who I am because and even when I try to explain it, they're never really gonna get it, and so on and so on and so on because I feel safer when I pull away from others. I feel safer when I feel like I have some control over what they expect of me by, in a way, sort of putting up a wall and saying, hey. I'm maxed out. I would even say that and you've written an entire book and interviewed hundreds of people on burnout. I would even say that might be a way of trying to mitigate burnout, and at the same time have the unintended effect of isolating you from the very sources of support that could help that burnout.

G: That's part of the equation. I think we shut people out by saying, you don't understand what I'm going through. Doesn't have to be that exact word, but you know, we see this on social media. All the time where people who get on these rants or these influencers, I'm putting my quotes up, you know, where that's kind of their shtick.

H: Right, you don't understand me. And yet and especially now, I mean, it's undeniable that a lot of people in the world are hurting right now. And a lot of people are scared and overwhelmed and having a great deal of trouble living in the now and having a great deal of trouble giving other humans unconditional acceptance. But if they wanted to try, if they said, okay, I've been listening to these two yammer on for forty five minutes plus.

I'm not gonna read the fricking book, but I will I'm willing to experiment with this concept of having the courage to be disliked because of the freedom, yhat is the promise. That is the promise. The freedom, the peace of mind, that is the promise of making these changes. Where would you say people could start if they wanted to just start to experiment with this. They're not ready to make the commitment and get the secret decoder ring and the handshake and all that, but I like to I like to experiment with this, I'm curious.

G: I think they need to get the book, and I would highly suggest the audiobook because the book is constructed as a dialogue between the philosopher and a very skeptical young student.

H: It's over like five nights, right? Five conversations yeah and…

G: Yeah. I don't think you get that in the book, but the people who narrated the book do an extremely good job with the, the emotions involved in, the kid thinks everything the guy says is controversial. That's, you know so there's doubt sewn through the entire book on purpose.

H: Which gives you permission as the listener or the reader to be skeptical and to have doubt.

G: Yeah. But if you're open with yourself, and again, that's self awareness piece, which we know is absolutely critical to making any change or understanding why we do things and why we don't do things, I think you keep an open mind, you listen to the book, you agree with what you want, you take the lessons sewn through the book, and disagree where you feel necessary, just like somebody listening to this you know?

H: That sounds so healthy, Dave.

G: I think it's maybe they call us a whack job, or I don't know. But I actually think if you let your guard down a little bit and listen to the book, you might say, you know what, I do that.

H: I think some sometimes we do need to be a little gobsmacked. Sometimes we do need to, as you call it, take a brick to the side of the head because oftentimes when we're struggling, ADHD or no, we are placing the problem outside of us and feeling like a victim of our circumstances. And oftentimes, that's not the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth because we don't see ourselves in the equation. And we can't change the things that are outside of our control.

So, yeah, I think it's worth a shot if what you're after is peace of mind and, the ability to get along better with others, manage your ADHD better, manage your emotional dysregulation better, manage your rejection sensitivity better. And also it's not a self help book, but it does help you because it's created in a way that's almost like a work of fiction, but with a fuck ton of wisdom wrapped in the storytelling.

G: No and I'll end it with this is there is one part in the book when you talk about emotional regulation about there's a piece of the book where they discuss anger and his argument okay. Again, this is probably the another huge controversy. Brace yourself for the controversy, folks.

H: Brace yourself.

G: Brace yourself. Dun dun dun is we use anger, ADHD or not. Let's just make sure we understand that. We use anger as a way to control others. There is a way to control our anger. So, again, I'll drop that bomb.

H: I think we have to I think that has to be a mic drop moment. Because that's yeah, and if that doesn't make you curious to, expose yourself to this book, I don't know what would because that should get you thinking. And, you wouldn't be listening to podcasts like this or Dave's very popular Overcoming Distractions podcast and book, if you are not interested in being the best human you could be. So check it out, check Dave out. Check his two books out, his podcast, and I will link to all of them right where you expect in the show notes. Thank you, friend.

G: Thank you for having me.