Owning Who You're Not & Fully Embracing Yourself: Unpacking Nicole Kalil's Confidence Journey

H: There are so many fabulous women out there that I am dying to interview and have as guests on this show. However, there's a very small number of those that I bring back more than once, so it is my pleasure to reintroduce you to Nicole Khalil. She has done so many wonderful things for women, and the latest is that she's published a book with the genius title Validation is for Parking, so I welcome you back and let's just start with that. The process of writing a book, it's been on my bucket list since fuck ever, still haven't done it and what has that done to you, with you, for you in terms of your own confidence journey?

G: Oh my gosh, Diann, that is such a loaded question.

H: I know that's just, yup!

G: But so before I answer, let me thank you for having me back and anytime, anywhere, any place, you ask, I'm there. Okay. So, the birthing of this book and I say it that way because that's honestly what it felt like is it's this process you know, you're creating internally behind the scenes in a, nobody else is involved. And then it's the producing of, and then taking care of and supporting of this thing, right and it's so personal and it's so meaningful. So it was always on my bucket list to do and I put it off for forever. And I think at one point or another I just got, I started realizing that my reasons, and I put reasons in air quotes, my reasons for not doing it were just bullshit excuses. Like, I would say things like, I have so much respect for authors and books that I don't even know what that meant. I did whatever people were buying it, and I just finally said it, I said I wanted to do this, I'm gonna do it. There was also for me, part of the reason I wanted so much to do this is because we are learning so much of what it is to be professional, successful, and confident from the masculine lens.

At the time I started writing the book, 92% of business books were being written by men and I know we learned so much from trainers and mentors and leaders that are men. And so, much of what we know about being professional or successful or confident in this world is coming from that masculine lens and I wanted to provide a balance to that, that was really important to me. Okay, the actual doing of it though, similar to having a child. I always joke around like, don't ever ask a woman when their child is under a year if they're gonna have another one. That's how I feel about the book it was messy and in some cases really ugly and draining and exhausting and fulfilling and joyful and scary and like all the emotions. So much so, and I did not do a very good job of going through this process well or holding to my boundaries or protecting my energy or asking for the help that I need.

So now in hindsight, you know, I've learned some things I wouldn't do again but unfortunately the way that I did it, there were so many conflicting and contradictory and variety of emotions that at one point in time I just went numb and I just went, went through the motions of it and checked the boxes and things happened. Like I hit the Amazon bestseller list, which was a goal and I felt zero things about it. I felt nothing. I had some of my closest and dearest friends fly from across the country to be here for the book launch and the party, and I was physically with them, I was not emotionally, mentally not with them at all so some regret, I'm glad that it's out there. I'm proud of the book itself but the experience in full transparency is not something I would look to repeat. But you should write a book, just do it differently than I did.

H: I'm like, well, I can cross that thing, sounds excruciating.

G: Sorry. I know. No, no, no, no, no, no. Not inspiring at all.

H: No, I think one of the reasons why we like each other so much, it's because you know that I'm gonna be honest and direct, and I know you're gonna give that right back. Would you say, Nicole, that writing the book and getting it out into the world, has been a confidence builder cuz I know, I know, I know, I know and we agree on this wholeheartedly and we're gonna get into all kinds of details, that confidence really is an inside job. And yet one of your five confidence builders is action so you took this massively huge action of writing, crafting, and sharing this book. Did it have an impact on you in terms of your confidence?

G: Without a shadow of a doubt, yes. And I can't tell you how much of the confidence builders were required and necessary to write to put out there to, because you, and then how much of the confidence derailers came up on a very regular basis. You know, perfectionism, when we were trying to lock the book for editing, perfectionism was all over the place. Head trash will people like this book. How will I feel if somebody, you know, gives it a one star review, what am I gonna make up about myself then? You know what, if nobody buy it, all the noise that came up in my brain, judgment and comparison, looking at other people's books and thinking, oh, well, my book is better than that one. Or looking at other people's books and going, oh shit, I can't put this out there, it's never gonna compete with that. And all this stuff in between, overthinking for sure. I mean, overthinking existed prior to even putting pen to paper. That's why I got put off for as many years as it did. And then, I mean this was an absolute exercise and confidence building and I'm so grateful for that part of it because it made me connect to believe in and rely on the things that are in the book at a much higher level than prior to writing it.

H: I mean, you literally walked your talk for months and months and months. One of the things, and I'll make sure that we share this in the show notes, this is a big part of Nicole's body of work, is talking about the five things that derail your confidence and the five things that you can do to build it. You literally had to lean on all of those things throughout the writing of the book to get you through it. And you know, I think it's something that is really, really important for us to share and to state and to highlight even in this conversation is when it comes to confidence, it is absolutely a choice, it is absolutely a habit and a journey and it's a process over time that continues to evolve. I think one of the biggest lies about confidence is that it's kind of a reward for a job well done like if you get to a certain state, a certain income level, a certain number on the scale, whatever it is, then you will feel confident. And when you get there and you feel it, and it's really flimsy, it's really flighty, maybe you feel nothing. Maybe you feel it for a minute, but it's gonna be followed by emptiness and self-doubt, and then you're gonna be right back on the bandwagon again. So I think it's really important for established successful, powerful women like you and I to be as honest as we're being, that it is an ongoing job and it's your job. It is an inside job.

G: Without a doubt, and all the things that you talked about is what I call the confidence. It's the false and mixed messages we're getting from a very young age, from a variety of different sources that if X happens, then I'll feel confident that sort of false equation. And also I would add the consistent messaging around what it is to look confident versus be confident. We are constantly told how to look the part and I couldn't say from personal experience, there's very little that's been more painful in my life than looking confident without being it. That contradict that not feeling comfortable in my own skin, but playing the part for everyone else. Draining, exhausting, you know, self hatred, all that stuff came up in that. And I think we need to stop telling, especially women how to look confident and start talking about how to become it.

H: Absolutely and one of the things I think you, I've heard you say in a number of other podcast interviews, including I believe, our first one over a year ago was that in the past you would repeat the slogan that's often used, fake it till you make it and you no longer do. Because and I think something you talk about in the book that's really, you know, I really felt this was you had just gotten a big promotion. You were already working in a male dominated field, fortune 100 company, C-Suite executive. You're like, you have fricking arrived, and another woman said to you, I wish I had your confidence, and you felt like the biggest fraud in that moment. A moment that should, air quotes have felt deeply satisfying to you felt horrendous and probably more than anything else, set you on this journey to realize what is this whole confidence thing. And I think it's what women do not actually understand about confidence that makes us susceptible to the con because it's all related, like the weight loss con and the beauty con and the anti-aging con and all of that is related to this external source of approval that turns us all into people pleasers on the outside and self-loathing, doubters on the inside. What a horrible way to live, that's become the freaking norm.

G: I mean, for me personally, it was awful and I didn't just feel like a fraud. I was one, like I, and I don't say that lightly, everything I did, all the choices that I make, all, all the work that I put in was for how it looked. And I did, I looked the part, I looked the part of the successful independent woman on the rise, you know, with all of my nice, like you need some man attitude. I mean, I looked the part, I was not being it and I just don't think you can live in conflict like that for too long without something happening, you know, whether it be an addiction or self-loathing or you know, I could tell that I was going down a road I didn't wanna be going down.

H: Your own insight and self-awareness literally saved you, and I think it's become such a key part of what you talk about in validation is for parking, is that if we're becoming these perfectionistic robots, trying to seek approval, seek permission, seek all of this on the outside, while on the inside, secretly doubting ourselves. I grew up with ADHD and giftedness, which is a very confusing combination because it gives you extreme skills and deficits and you can't predict how they're gonna show up. So if you look like you're really smart, people expect you to be good at all the things. Meanwhile, I'm like, disorganized, forgetful, distracted so my whole thing growing up was passing for normal and your thing was like passing for confident. Like I know how to pass as a confident woman, but passing is not the same thing as feeling, which is why my personal favorite chapter in the book is Chapter five, Own Who You're Not and Embrace Yourself Anyway. I want you to talk to me about why that chapter was an important part of this book for you.

G: Yeah, so my working definition of confidence is when you know who you are, own who you're not, and choose to embrace all of it. And so I think, so many women have stopped the even self-awareness part of it, the knowing who they are, their gifts, their talents, their unique abilities, what makes them special. Having said that, I think even the bigger opportunity is this owning who we are not peace. And sometimes people look at it as an opportunity to beat up on themselves, and that is not at all what I am talking about here. It's more about the, again, journey of self-discovery, of learning where your passions lie, what makes you tick, what makes you unique and special and worthy and valuable in all the ways that we all are. But there's a component of that, of understanding that none of us, not you, not myself, not anybody listening, are meant to be all things to all people all the time.

In fact, the reality is most of us our purpose or our passions or our contributions are probably much narrower than we are acknowledging or aware of. And so part of this is understanding that in order to say yes to something, you're always saying no to something else. There are always trade-offs that we make and one of the things that I think, especially as women that we're doing damage to ourselves by doing is we're watering down our unique abilities and talents by trying to spread ourselves so wide as opposed to narrowing. So the part of this process of narrowing is understanding, that's not meant for me, I'm not meant for that, this isn't a me thing. This isn't something I should be saying yes to. My gifts and talents would be wasted on this person or on this space and so it's this owning who we're not, owning what we're not meant for, what we're not here for, and embracing that part of ourselves.

So, I use some examples in the some are easier than others, you know, I can acknowledge that I'm not tall, so I'm probably not meant to be in the WNBA, that's pretty easy for me. One of the things that I am not is I am not ever going to be, and I put in air quotes the perfect mom or a Pinterest mom, or maybe even a traditional or stereotypical mom, and not only accepting but embracing that is freeing. It's actually making me better at all the other things, including being a mom and so I think we have the tendency when we recognize that we're not something that we try to overcompensate for it or we try to look that we are as opposed to going, that's not for me. I'm not for that and that's great. That's part of what makes me me and recognizing that gives me the opportunity to be more of myself. I think sometimes people think it's again, that beat up and for me it's been the opposite, it's been freedom.

H: I absolutely agree, and I also think this is related to the fact that most of us see any kind of self-imposed limitations as painful constraints when in reality the more you spread yourself around, the less you can actually show up in any of those places. And I love what Brene Brown says about the difference between fitting in and belonging, I think if you have to kind of neutralize so much about yourself in order to fit in, you will never belong anywhere because belonging requires you to be all in and totally authentic so that the people who are there in that environment can actually see you, get you, feel you, and choose you. And you can do the same if you're doing what you need to do to fit in that, that's not even possible because you're, you will be conforming to the perceived norms for that group.

Here's case in point, you're a podcaster, I'm a podcaster. I had to make a decision as you did early on, what the rating of my show is going to be. It was more important for me to be able to express myself as I naturally do in any conversation I have. So I had to put an explicit rating because I do like me, the occasional F bomb, maybe the frequent F bombs. I've had so many people tell me, it was really refreshing to me to hear your language get a little spicier since the last time we chatted. But I've had so many people say, you know, you could get your podcast in front of a lot more people if you would just stop swearing and change your rating. And I said, why would I want to get myself in front of more people who wouldn't want to know the real me I mean, what's the point. And I have a question for you on this, do you think that it requires that you reach a certain age, a certain level of maturity to be able to make that choice.

Because I listened to an interview that you did with Elise Archer on her podcast, and you talked about how women's confidence evolves over the lifespan. How boys and girls are about the same up until about age seven to nine, and then girls start to fall behind. And so as we're going through our career building years, twenties, thirties, and so forth, we're significantly less confident, less likely to go after the thing we want and so forth. Less likely to promote and champion ourselves, and then by 50 that starts to change and by 60 women are actually more confident than men now. That has certainly been my experience and I believe that it's because of the influence of estrogen which starts to I believe you go into what I call the estrogen evacuation at menopause in your fifties. Do you think that it's possible for women considerably younger than us women in their twenties and thirties to reach the same level of confidence as a woman who's closer to 50?

G: I'm not so sure about that, but I would also say that I don't know that anyone of any gender can reach the confidence in their twenties, generally speaking, that they will in their fifties because confidence is when you trust yourself and between your twenties and your fifties, you have, you know, 30 years of life experience. You have 30 years of practice, you have 30 years of overcome challenges. You've have 30 years of tough days you've recovered from, you've 30 years of knowing yourself better. You have 30 years of figuring out what's meant for you and what's not meant for you and so I think, you know, all of us with life and experience become more who we are. We become more comfortable in our own skin. We become more aware and grounded and, and so I think for all of those reasons, regardless of gender, we all trust ourselves more.

We all become more confident over time but I do think, the research that I shared on that podcast that supports this idea that there is sort of a separation as it relates to confidence between girls and boys around that seven to nine, and that we don't find that kind of common ground again until our forties, fifties, and then we women actually become more confident. I think that shows how it is or how it has been. I don't think it necessarily communicates the way it needs to be, or the way that it can be. I don't see any reason why women should have less confidence. I think this is mostly the way, you know, society, other factors like religion, advertising, the professional world that we live in. There are so many patriarchy, of course, there are so many things that are contributing to what I perceive as separation from ourselves. So I think what's happening in that seven to nine range is young girls are getting different messaging than young boys and by the way, young boys are getting messaging that separates themselves from their confidence just in a totally different way.

But the messaging we're getting as young girls is the way that it looks is more important than how you feel. So, behave, be polite, be kind, be sweet, be nice, be you know, all the, and be look pleasing to the opposite sex and all the noise, right? I do think we're making progress in how we're raising young girls and the messages that they're receiving, I mean, it's so silly, but even the example of like Disney movies. Some of the old ones I can't even watch without just dying inside. Like, I will not let my daughter watch The Little Mermaid are you kidding? Some woman gives up her voice for a man she's never met, sorry, it's not happening. And then you watch them today and they have much more evolved messaging.

By the way, think it's so important not only that we be mindful of how we're raising and communicating to young girls, but also how we're raising, communicating to young boys. There so much still messed up messaging unconsciously, and I catch myself even doing it. But all of that to say, I think if we continue to work to create environments for young people, to grow up and embrace who they are and to learn the skill of trusting themselves that there's no reason that we can't over time create a situation where we are raising confident humans who enter the world with their gifts and their passions and their worthiness intact and I can't wait to see that. I hope I'm here to see that.

H: I'm absolutely here for that and I think you're absolutely right. In fact, I think I agree with you a hundred percent, we are born knowing who we are and that begins to be stripped away from us through the messages, the family conditioning, the educational conditioning, the cult to gender-based cultural conditioning, religious conditioning, professional conditioning. I think maturity and personal evolution happens as we begin to unlearn all of those things that are no longer serving us. The number one, I think when I look back, I knew what I wanted to do when I was 20. I knew what my gifts were, I knew where my curiosity led me. I knew what I would be good at professionally. I told the guidance counselor in college, this is what I believe I'm meant to do and they talked me out of it. And because I had not gotten enough of those messages about trusting in myself, I went with what they told me and I realized what an important lesson that is you know, for parents it's not so much that we need to shape our children.

We need to help them see who they are and become more of that the world does not need more people who don't know who they are, who don't know why they're doing what they're doing, but they're simply following the herd because that's what everyone else seems to be doing. I don't think there's any mistake that there's some connection between all of this and the rampant numbers of people struggling with depression like there has to be a consequence when you deny forsake or neglect who you really are. So I love that love, love that you included this in the book, because knowing who you are is only half the job, knowing who you're not is the other half and standing boldly on that, I mean, someone's not gonna like you. Someone's not gonna like you if you're a hundred percent you, there are also people that aren't gonna like you if you're just creating a mask, a facade, a persona of likability because authenticity is attractive. You talk about this a lot, confidence is more attractive to people than competency, which is fascinating in and of itself and maybe it's because it's relatively rare, what do you think?

G: Yeah, I mean, honestly, I wish this even weren't the case. If you think about it logically, yes, we should follow the most competent person in the room, right? But unfortunately the studies and data shows that people will always follow the most confident person in the room. But if you think about it for a second, ultimately what the most confident person in the room is saying is, I trust myself to figure this out or whatever, and unconsciously, we;re going to trust the person who trusts themselves. If you were uber competent, but you're not trusting yourself in it, then unconsciously we’re not going to trust you either. And so I think the magic is the combination of confidence and competence, right? That is the leader who is gonna dhange the world or an organization or whatever. But unfortunately, generally speaking, women are over rotating on competence and not showing up confidently, and men are over rotating towards confidence and not increasing their competence enough and I think we have something to learn from each other in that.

H: Absolutely. Do you think it's possible, Nicole, to be too confident and like, what would that look like?

G: I don't believe there is such a thing as too confident if you put it in the frame of trusting yourself, can you trust yourself too much? I don't believe so. But I think when you think about the too much being arrogance or ego or even narcissism, none of those things are confidence but I do think we have kind of encapsulated those things. So like if I think of somebody who's too confident, I'm typically thinking of somebody with a huge ego or somebody who's uber arrogant and none of us want to be that. It's not at all attractive to so many women, and unfortunately, oftentimes we're seeing people demonstrate that and having it be called confidence, even though it's not. All those things are just a mask for a whole host of insecurities. If you're arrogant or you know, have a huge ego, you're basically putting on the mask and covering for all the fears and insecurities that you have, but especially in the professional environment we often see people show up arrogantly or with huge egos and then the people around us call that confidence and we get confused. That's again, part of the con and so you look at that and go, you know, that's too confident and I want no part of that and I agree with you. There's a quote that I like that says, insecurities are loud, confidence is quiet and I don't necessarily mean that, I guess confidence doesn't need to prove itself would be the point.

H: I really, really, really like that so you cut your teeth in a male dominated industry and you now work…

G: And a lot of other things not just my teeth anyway.

H: And now you work with women, do you think that it's harder for a woman to develop that self trust or maybe not harder, maybe that's not the best question, what do you think the differences are between a woman who is wanting to develop genuine confidence, the ability to trust herself, is it different for her in a male dominated job industry company versus one where there's a lot more women?

G: Yeah. So, I think the answer is yes, there are differences. I think there are probably, as it relates to confidence, pros and cons on both sides or different challenges on both sides and the male dominated side. I think some of the unique challenges are, again, confidence is when you trust yourself, and that means trusting all the parts of yourself. That knowing who you are owning, who you're not part of, who I am and I do as a woman have a lot of what are considered to be more masculine qualities. I'm very decisive, bold in my communication. I'm a big risk taker, so there are masculine qualities in me, but there are certainly feminine ones. And I think what happens in male dominated industries is all people, not just women, but all people are put in a situation where they need to over rotate towards the masculine and set aside, ignore stuff down, minimize any of the feminine. And the masculine is celebrated and the feminine is sort of like, weakness and like down…

H: Well, we call these soft skills, right, these soft skills are some of the hardest work you're ever gonna do.

G: Exactly, that's I'm like, I've done both the hard and the soft skills, and I'm telling you the softer ones are harder. So, I think that what can be really problematic in a male dominated industry, it's easy to lose trust to almost divorce from yourself in that environment because you are completely ignoring or minimizing a, a part of who you are, especially a as a woman. I do think the flip side, the difference or the challenge in being a woman working with women is some of those more masculine quality can trigger a lot of shame or judgment and I just think there's more judging going on in general, especially about personal things in the professional environment, like, you know, who you choose to date or, how many drinks you've had or who helps you in your household or the list goes on. I found in the male dominated industry, there was a lot of judgment about my professional persona in when I work with more women, the judgment extends to all aspects of my life,

H: That's such an astute point and I'm wondering if you would agree with me. My assumption in hearing that, and I, that absolutely resonates with me Nicole is thinking that because women are now modern women are expected to perform in so many domains simultaneously. You know, marriage, parenthood, maintaining the home, this managing the social life, professional success, so on and so on and so on. Because we have all these layers of expectations that have been placed upon us and what we have embraced and are attempting to excel in all these areas. We give ourselves so many more domains of functioning to judge and criticize and find ourselves another women lack that totally makes sense.

G: It's what Jill Savage calls the perfection infection and I think that that's what's playing out here is again, this, you know, we have a tendency to hold ourselves to expectations of perfection. We've gotta do it all, have it all, be it all, look good while doing it. Somehow make it look effortless and then we put that other people, other women especially. And of course that's gonna chip away at your confidence because it's unattainable, it's unachievable. You have no hopes but to fall short and then of course, you know, judgment can chip away at confidence. So there is a lot of things I think that exist in professional environments that can work against our own confidence. There are differences between the more male dominated industries and the more female dominated ones, but any way you slice it, we've got to be protectors of our own assets and confidence is without a doubt, one of our greater assets.

H: I couldn't agree more. Something I have noticed, did you play sports growing up, by the way?

G: I didn't. I danced competitively though.

H: Okay, I think that probably qualifies because something I've noticed in the women that I've worked with in the last decade, those who were on a competitive sports team growing up, specifically the swimmers, they have a totally different relationship with risk and failure than those who did not have the competitive spars. Now, I would say anything probably competitive, I think the fact that you are part of a group, you're part of a team, and competition is baked in. That's probably what the crucial ingredient is because generally speaking, girls are sort of taught to avoid risk to avoid making mistakes, to avoid failing or having the appearance of failure.

So we will tend to hold ourselves back, shrink ourselves down, and stick to the things that we know that we're already good at, which over a lifetime, over a career is extremely damaging. While those who have been of any gender, who have been encouraged to participate in competitive sports, learn to balance individuality with being part of a collective learn that you have to take risks in order to improve and learn that just because you failed doesn't make you a failure, you can always try again. I cannot think of lessons that are more important for all children to learn and if I could have a do-over on my three kids, two sons and a daughter, I would not have allowed them to drop out of competitive sports when they insisted on doing so because it would've served all of them so well, especially my daughter.

G: So I am so glad that you said that my daughter is nine and she's, you know, just starting to get involved in things and I try really hard not to put my stuff on her. And I want to create an environment of curiosity and discovery and I try really hard to not say she's like this or she's not like that, or like, cuz I want there to be space for self-discovery basically. But one thing that is very important to me is that she participate in team sports and I sometimes like go back and forth, am I like putting my stuff on her or is this really as valuable as I think it is and you just helped reinforce a feeling that it's just so important and yes, you do. You learn about collaboration. You learn about not only trusting yourself, but trusting others. You learn about, failures and mistakes and that you actually will be okay on the other side of 'em. You learn so many crucial lessons just in life, but for sure related to confidence.

H: I think it's one of the edges that most males tend to have is they tend to be shuffled into team sports and they tend to remain there longer because it's a more comfortable environment for building friendships when you don't wanna just sit and talk about stuff like little girls often do, but you have now hit another milestone in your career. You have had a beautiful trajectory in developing your body of work in your leadership as a speaker, as a coach, as a podcaster, and now, a bestselling author. But you mentioned to me before I hit record that you're in a different kind of space now and I would kind of think that it's like, okay, there's so much of an ethos right now in our culture about every woman needs to be an entrepreneur.

Every woman wants to be an entrepreneur, you don't wanna work for a corporation. You wanna be your own boss and I honestly don't think this is for everybody but even for those of us it is for. This constant need, this constant battle cry to keep leveling up and leveling up and leveling up. I think it just doesn't really suit most people because, I think sometimes you need to savor. Sometimes you need solitude, sometimes you need rest. Sometimes you just need stop for a minute, get off the hamster wheel and recalibrate because what you've put yourself through in this last year, producing this book by your own admission was pretty excruciating. And I imagine you're at a totally different vantage point for thinking about what you do next. You're giving yourself that time, could we talk about that for a minute?

G: Yeah, absolutely. So I think, part of this is I constantly am questioning myself in the, what am I doing from a place of trusting myself and what am I doing from a place of this is the way it's always been done. And I think what happened in the book launch phase is I defaulted back to force and tenacity and commitment and doing this and start early and late. And I sort of defaulted to a lot of the more masculine things that I had done early or and often in my career that have produced results that have worked for me in some ways. But I over-rotated again really hard, I defaulted and it created an imbalance. It created a lot of angst and all of that and I found myself heading into the new year feeling the pressure, the shoulds of business plan, business strategy, tactics, metrics, spreadsheets, meetings about the meetings to execute and all that, because that's what I would normally be doing November, December, January and I just was like, I can't do it.

Anything I would come up with would be to check a box or for the sake of doing it and I have experienced doing things because it was right for the plan even though it wasn't right for me and that to me was scarier than entering the year without a plan. And this is an exercise in trust of course I'm gonna have goals at some point. Of course, you know, things will become clear, but to allow the space for self-discovery. As I try for my daughter, I often think, what would I want for her and then try to apply that to myself, to be curious and again, to trust and full acknowledgement of the work that I've done to put myself in this position and also the privilege that I have, that I technically don't need to work this year, and we will be okay, right?

Like we will be able to pay the mortgage and do things like that, and so, I'm gonna take some time. Also, this goes into the owning who I'm not, I'm not an extrovert and I am not a high energy person, and so this sort of go, go, go, you know, do, do, do, be, it's exhausting to me and I often need to recharge the batteries. I typically try to recharge in more strategic times of the year. This is the first time I'm entering the year in a recharge, relax, restore place. I'm just gonna trust that it's right because everything in my being, everything in my inner knowing, my inner voice is telling me that this is where I'm supposed to be and what I'm supposed to do and so here I am.

H: I think this whole self-trust thing probably has a mind of its own, if you will, a path of its own that, I happen to be Buddhist, so my journey is always looking within me, trusting myself, deepening my connection with myself. I don't look to a deity to help me figure out what to do next or tell me when I'm on the right path, I look to myself for that. And I think that the path of self-discovery and the path of self-awareness and the path of path of self trust is uncharted territory. I mean, you really can't know where it's going to take you. You only know that if you deviate from that path, what it feels like which is biofeedback. It reminds you, oh yeah, I remember how, oh, that doesn't really feel so good, come to think of it, it never did. It's almost like you've come too far and yes, you can sort of deviate. You can sort of slide off the path, but you'll remind yourself by paying attention to how you feel, that nothing good is going to come from this. And it'll be really interesting to see where your self trust takes you. I don't know if you think that self-trust and intuition are the same thing. I may be thinking of them as the same, but I suspect maybe they're not entirely the same for you.

G: I definitely put them in the same category, instinct, intuition, trust. I also think there's an element when we trust ourselves of acknowledging that we don't know, or that things might not, so, like intuition to me, tells me what's right for me. Trust is even deeper. I don't even know what's right for me yet, but I trust that I will figure it out. I trust that I will get on the other side. I trust that I will be okay. It's in the space of the unknown or even in the hard times where I think trust is the most magical and where it makes the biggest impact and so I'm trusting that trust. It's a weird thing. I don't have words on it yet because I'm so in the middle of it but…

H: You also are doing all the things to figure it out too. Like I noticed a couple months ago you made an announcement on social media that I'm stepping away from this, it doesn't really feel good to me anymore. And I knew then even before this conversation, you were in a different space than you were a year ago and I don't think you can go wrong when you're trusting yourself more and more and more because we have plenty of evidence out there in the world and in our own lives that the opposite never yields the very results from us. Will never allow us to tap in and express our gifts in the optimal way so I applaud your courage, I really do.

G: And I'll add to that, our body and our being is always speaking, it's just our opportunity to listen. And that can be really hard, especially today with all of the noise and the very little times to even get quiet or be quiet and listen. And so that's a little bit what I'm trying to create more space for the back end of last year was a lot of noise, and it was like I could not listen to anything in the midst of it and so I'm just creating this space for it.

H: I think this is the per perfect place for us to bring this conversation to a close. You are in a sacred space right now, and only good things are gonna come from that, and I think it's wonderful that you have the opportunity to take it because I think that's where gifts and creativity and our true contribution to others must come from is that very space and it's rare and previous. Thank you, thank you, thank you for being here and sharing all of your thoughts and wisdom, and I just may have to have you back again, I'm just saying.

G: I'm telling you anytime, any place you name it, I'm there Diann. Thank you for the incredible work that you do and the difference that you make and for having me again.

H: Again, you're a gift. Thank you.