When Your Business Has ADHD, Too

H: Diane, this has been one of those conversations that we probably should have hit record an hour ago because we have been having so much fun. And I suspect one of the reasons for that is related to something your doctor told you. When you were given your ADHD diagnosis, I think you were in your mid-30s, you were just making the transition from corporate to self employment. You were looking for something else and discovered ADHD quite by accident. And your doctor told you that you have the fun, kind of ADHD. What did he mean by that and do you agree?

G: It's an interesting question. I remember at the time being, like, super confused because obviously I hadn't gone there thinking that I had anything to do with ADHD. It wasn't really a thing back in the day because, you know, so old and I think I was so worked up about this idea that I could have, like, early onset Alzheimer's, it runs in the family. And I had just like, completely, I guess, hyper focused on it and that's what I was going there to rule out. And so to have the conversation swing from no, your brain's totally fine to, by the way, you have ADHD was already a bit of, like a jolt for me.

And he was talking to me about whether or not it needed to be medicated. And he said, look, you probably fine, because I was like, I don't think I have ADHD, what do you mean, do I have ADHD? And he said to me, well, you probably find that you can be a bit impulsive and maybe sometimes your inhibitions are a bit lower than you may be excited about the following day like, have you ever danced on a bar? And, you know, obviously I've never done that in my life and he said, yeah, you have, like, the fun ADHD. It lowers your inhibitions just enough, it makes you just impulsive enough but it doesn't seem to be having, like, a negative impact on your life.

You know, you've had a successful career. You seem to be, like, well organized and well adjusted to everything. You're not struggling to study or, you know, any of those, like, initial indicators. He's like, so yours is just kind of like adding some spice to your life. And he did suggest that if I found that it developed further and I caught myself dancing naked on a bar, that would be a time to reach out to a psychiatrist locally and consider whether or not I needed to be medicated. So I don't know if it's the fun type. I think it's a lot more fun than it is for other people.

When, you know, especially people who I know who have struggled to fit in somewhere or struggled with how they fit into the, like, typical world or, like, jobs and things, like, I can think back to people now and be like, oh, okay, this makes a lot more sense. So I feel like I've had an easier ride than other people. And I think maybe that is also just because I don't remember what it was like to not be coping with ADHD. Do you know what I mean? Like, I've just created systems around myself to help where I needed help, and I don't remember a time that those didn't exist.

H: Yes. When you started to say, I didn't remember, I'm thinking, yeah, that's probably the most frustrating thing about my own ADHD is the astonishing amount of stuff I just don't remember. And then the ridiculous stuff I do remember. It's like, why this makes no sense. But I do agree that the having the hyperactivity and impulsivity, if it's really extreme, you're probably going to have problems with the law or drugs of some sort. But if you have just enough, you can be the life of the party. You can be, you can just blurt things out that sometimes it's cringe, but sometimes it's, you know, really fun and funny. And you, you can recover from those little gaffes, too, because you're, you know, you're fun to be around.

G: Entertaining.

H: Yeah, entertaining. So I like thinking of that as the fun kind of ADHD. And we both agree that it's not fun for everybody and there are times that it's not at all fun for us. But one of the reasons why I invited you, other than the fact that you're my friend and I think you're brilliant, is that we is what you do for businesses, you help business owners with their business model. And I think before we dig into that further, we probably should tell the listeners why you and I decided to name this episode When Your Business model has ADHD too, because that might be confusing.

G: Yeah. I think there's this thing in the online business world, and it's not specific to ADHD and systems. It's this cookie cutter approach to everything and build your business like I build my business. And you can also be a millionaire in three hours with 20 seconds of effort. And I think for ADHD people, we're already coping with we know we're different. We're already coping with all of these other things in our personal life, and then we come into this space. And we're like, well, this must be me, I must be failing. And to be honest, a lot of things in the entrepreneurial space teach you that.

H: Yes.

G: Like, that is a lot of the coaching that has happened in the past decade has been, well, I was successful doing it. So if you're not successful, you must not have tried hard enough, you must have done something wrong. Like, you are the failure, not me, the failure in teaching you and I think that's a really difficult place for anyone to be. But for us to then be given solutions that are like, you should use this system or you should use that system that then also feels uncomfortable to you, starts to like, chafe, like anything would. And I think it's important that people understand that everybody builds the business model that reflects them to start with.

So if someone is really good at the marketing side, they are going to build a business that's heavy on the front end. They're going to sell, they're going to market, they're going to get revenue up the wazoo. Their systems are usually a bit of a nightmare. And that can mean that maybe they're not making as much money out the back end as they would like right.

So they've got the revenue, but their costs are ridiculous or clients are leaving them and they're refunding because they know marketing best. That's what they've started with, that's how we start in business. If you've got someone who's a systems person and a tech person, they will have the most beautiful back end you have ever seen. Everything will be automated and connected and it'll be exquisite. But they will struggle to explain to someone what having that beautiful backend could do for their business.

H: The marketing piece.

G: The marketing piece, exactly. So they've built their business based on their natural skill set and tendency. In the same way ADHD people build their business the same way that they tend to behave. So we tend to go for dopamine, big ideas, lots of fun things in the marketing. But then we also want to change direction really quickly and we want to make a lot of money. And we can't understand why our team can't keep up with us and why they can't exactly understand what it is that we're trying to do.

And then we're super frustrated and we think it's something that we're doing wrong. And we're kind of in the space where if we think of it in the marketing and systems, it's very often we're great at the starting. And we're not so great at the follow through piece of the puzzle. We're not good at the rhythm, the routine, the delegation, the tech. Not because we can't do it, but just because it's not giving us dopamine.

H: Bingo.

G: And so what you land up with is this business model that looks externally, especially to someone typical, chaotic. It looks like what you look like when you're struggling with executive function and your apartment is a bomb site. Your desktop on your computer is covered in screenshots that are probably like multi layers of screenshots, not just one screenshot, because that's the idea that you were going to remember. It kind of reflects where you are. And that's not a good thing or a bad thing if you want to stay where you are. If you decide that, hey, I want to grow this business.

And this is usually where the wheels start to come off because everything's held together with duct tape and a prayer. Especially with ADHD, it's in every single piece. So you might enjoy marketing, but you're not consistent at marketing. You might get excited about a new spreadsheet or AI, but you're not consistent with it in your ops pieces, the puzzle. You're like, thrilled about your team, but actually you hired another whole bunch of ADHD people and now you're all just ADHD-ing all over ADHD-ing all day.

When you want to grow, you can't grow from that chaos. You have to grow from sustainability. And we don't build for sustainability. We build for speed and excitement because that's what turns us on. And so there's this tipping point in business where if your business is doing what do you want it to do right now? Amazing. If you want it to move or if you would actually just like it to keep doing what it's doing right now, and for it to be a little bit easier, you have to think about, like, where am I putting ADHD in my business and how do I work around that or work with that, maybe is a better way to say it.

H: Oh, you're reminding me of so many people that I have worked with who come to me and say, yes, I want help, want to earn more money and spend less time at it and create more ease. And then they proceed to tell me that they actually have five different businesses and they're all at the same stage of business. So they're all cannibalizing the time, effort, focus, energy that is available, or they have 50 different offers, or, you know, they are on all the social media and it's like. And do you have a team? No, just me. It's like, oh my gosh.

So something that you and I have talked about, Diane, is how we are the way we're wired. We are driven to create more complexity. And I think mainly because it's very stimulating to go down those rabbit holes. You know, we have an idea and we fall madly in love with it. It's the best idea we've ever had. Mainly because it's fresh and shiny and new and hasn't been sullied by genuine experience yet. And so we max out on it because we're getting so much dopamine from that.

And now, of course, now we want to make it work, but we never thought about like how we were actually going to operationalize this thing because that's not exciting, that's not sexy, that's not fun there's no dopamine there. So then we try to like shoehorn it into some sort of structure that makes it work. I wonder if it's even. Do you think it's possible for brains like ours to think about the systems and the structures from the beginning or do we just have to let ourselves run with that brilliant shiny new idea and then figure out how to make those systems work for it?

G: No, I think we're too anti-being told what to do to like. Because you could tell an ADHD person like, this is the way you're going to grow an eight-figure business.

H: Yeah, they're not going to.

G: And they would be like, I'm going to prove you wrong, here are my 17 ideas. You know it, and one of the most classic examples that I see of this in the entrepreneurial space is conventional wisdom around business. And I always say to people like, you can hate corporate, you can hate conventional wisdom, but there is a reason that big businesses became big businesses. You can't discount it right. That's like saying the person with your dream body, you don't want, I don't know, they're six pack abs, therefore everything they say is completely irrelevant.

You don't want big corporates culture. But the conventional wisdom is you pick one thing, you work your ass off on one thing. When that's up and running, then you expand into the next thing and the next thing and the next thing. And the quintessential thing at the moment in entrepreneurship, that is the complete opposite of that because that's boring. Every single person listening to this with ADHD just groaned because they can't think of anything worse.

Now, I'm not saying that that's where you have to go, but the opposite end of the spectrum is this multi-passionate term that we've come up with recently, which is this really interesting space where business coaches are giving ADHD people permission to ADHD all over their business. If you want to have 42 ideas, you have 42 ideas. And I'm like, great, but it's going to suck, it's going to be hard. And it might be exciting at the beginning because now you have all fueled up on these ideas, but now you have to do systems for 42 offers.

H: And marketing strategies for each of those.

G: Yeah, which is all the stuff that we're not great at. So it's this interesting switch that we've seen where it's this permission where I think people are kind of targeting ADHD people to say, like, you can have all the dopamine you like if you work with me, I won't tell you to just have one offer. And I think that's doing us a bit of a disservice because, yes, you can do that. But it very much depends on what your goal is. If your goal is to just have 92 offers because that's exciting to you, congratulations, you're in. If your goal is to create a certain level of financial freedom, time freedom, creative freedom, that's probably not the way to go about it.

H: I'm so glad you brought this up, Diane, because we see trends in online business, we see trends in coaching, we've seen, as you've mentioned, it's kind of like the six weeks to six figures follow my six step proven process. And then of course, if you don't get the desired outcome, they gaslight you because you didn't want it bad enough. You didn't show the universe you meant business, you didn't double down, you didn't take massive action, blah, blah, blah.

So the cookie cutter strategy that's really screwed over so many people messed with their heads, emptied their wallets and in so many cases convinced them they don't have what it takes to be an entrepreneur. Then now come a few years later some people have noticed that quite a few entrepreneurs have ADHD traits. ADHD is all of a sudden big business. And a lot of people are talking about it and a lot of people are claiming it.

And some marketers are saying, seem to be a lot of these folks out there if I just pander to them, if I just say, hey, neurospicy folk, come one, come all. I'm not going to put you in a box. I'm not going to make you color within the lines. I'm going to let you run with your brilliant ideas. You're multi passionate, you're multi potential and you don't have to do things the typical way. They may be just pulling this out of their ass or off of, you know, ChatGPT. They're not neurodivergent. They don't actually know what these people need.

They're just running with what they see as a marketing opportunity and you're going to end up with the same result is trying to shoehorn neurodivergent people into someone else's proven process. Giving people permission to, just like you say, ADHD all over yourself, just run with 67 ideas. They're not going to be successful and now they're really going to blame themselves.

So if, yeah, it's shameful and it's sad and unfortunately too many of us are looking for that magic pill. We're looking for permission to just be who we are and we want someone to tell us what we want to hear. That you can be exactly how you are and be successful. I think that is true, but it's not by telling people that they don't need structure, they don't need limits, they don't need boundaries and they can do whatever the fuck they want. And I know you don't believe that either.

G: No. And I think if you go back and you look at how those people who talk about like come forth and do whatever multi passionate thing you want to do, built their business in order to be able to sell to the audience that they now have. I promise you there's a traditional business behind it. They have gone deep before they've gone wide. Selling you their year 10 can be your year one. And that's a really dangerous place to be. So I do encourage, I think, like, the longer you're in the industry, the more history you know about it and what businesses people ran before they ran their last launch kind of thing. And I think that's an interesting space.

H: Doing a little bit of digging, a little bit of sleuthing, you know.

G: Yeah, yeah. Little Google never hurt anyone.

H: Yep. And you know, it's, it's interesting to think about how some of our ADHD traits can be weaponized against us. Like when people know we're impulsive, they just make that thing really, really shiny and tell us what we want to hear and we just jump at it. But how you talk about certain ADHD traits, not all of them. Certain ADHD traits are actually risk factors that can break our business, and they're probably not the ones we are keeping an eye out for. Can we talk about those?

G: Yeah. So look, I think all of them have an impact and they all bring risk. But from working with a lot of entrepreneurs who are mostly ADHD slash ADHD ish. I think there are probably like three that I see being like, really big risk factors that we need to be aware of. The most obvious one, I think, to most people is our tendency to dopamine seek, right? So we don't have enough of our own dopamine, we go looking for it. And this creates two different problems for us in business.

Number one, when we go looking for dopamine, which is the 900 offers, chasing the next thing, you know, getting super duper excited about the latest marketing trend, not really thinking through what's the next step in this. Just kind of like living into this idea of, like, it's almost the dream state of, like, this could be the idea, this could be the one, and then getting absorbed by it at the cost of everything else.

H: It's like falling in love, right? It's like falling madly in love or infatuation.

G: I think some entrepreneurs are more in love with their ideas than they are with, like, whoever they're in love with.

H: Truth, absolutely.

G: Desperately like, once you had the idea, you won't hear anything negative said about that idea. You don't want to think about the reality of it. You don't want to know that it snores in at night or that it, like, has a tendency to come home drunk and want to talk to you for 17 hours. You know, all you see is how beautiful it is and what it could be and how you're going to mold it. I think the flip side of us seeking dopamine is us avoiding things that don't give us dopamine.

So we go chasing the ideas because they give us dopamine. We don't like things like admin spreadsheets, tech, processes, managing our team, things that tend to be more routine and that require consistency for us to be good at. So because we chase the dopamine, you would think, well, new offers, marketing, that's our jam and it is. But like, oh, my God, new TikTok trend, let me do that. So we're TikTok trending, but we're not thinking about where are we sending any of that traffic. Like, we're getting dopamine from going viral, we're not enacting a consistent marketing plan.

We're gluing together the back office. Nine times out of ten, it's so manual. Like there is someone on the team that if they got hit by a bus tomorrow, you would be real, in real trouble because everything is so manual. Because you can't sit still long enough to talk about why you should pay for this system. Or you've spent so much money on a system that you don't need. Like a really big CRM that does all of these things that you and your small business doesn't need. So dopamine is this like double edged sword for us. We're chasing all the things that, that get us high and we're avoiding all the things that kind of bring us down.

So we land up with this very chaotic business where yes, some things work, but nothing works super consistently. Nothing fits together brilliantly, nothing is designed. Like if it does fit together brilliantly, it's not by design. Like you got lucky by accident things and like then on the flip side of that or on the other end of that, your client is feeling that, right. They're feeling that inconsistent delivery and so they're not re upping. So now, oh, you need another offer because you have to go and find someone, right? So I think that's the dopamine one and we can talk about what you could try for some of those to give you an idea.

But let me go through all three and then we can talk about systems things. The second one I think is our executive function slash dysfunction. And even the most neurotypical entrepreneur has to make so many decisions that they struggle to keep up with the decision fatigue. They struggle with the ability to keep going, to do the things that they need to do to have the mental capacity for the next thing. We already come into it at a disadvantage where we don't have the same level of executive function.

Then we have all the decisions, plus we bring all this chaos in ourselves which creates more crises that then need us to focus again. And we tend to then freeze in a big decision moment or in a crisis moment, when we need to make a move, we need to do something, we can't bring ourselves to do it. And so what happens is we kind of make a decision and then we pivot or we don't make a decision and then your team are left to like sprint to a deadline because you've used 90% of the time to decide what you were going to do, and then you're wondering why they're irritated, have no time to actually implement what you wanted them to implement.

So they live in this kind of limbo. And you live with 9 million open loops in your brain. And your brain hates an open loop because it has to constantly revisit it until you close it. And ADHD people are not good at closing loops because they're not good at getting the thing done. And that is exhausting.

H: We just open more loops.

G: Right. It's like all the tabs on your computer all open all at the same time. And you do that in your brain, plus you add more loop more tabs to it all the time. And then don't forget, you also have all of this happening outside of your business right. So for me, I can tell when I'm getting stuck in ADHD paralysis when I'm really low on executive function, because my flat, my apartment, becomes an absolute pigsty. I lose the ability to tidy up, like, it's not dirty or anything. Dishes are still washed, but I lose the ability to, like, clear the counters.

H: Yes, it's cluttered.

G: End of a work day, like, I'm just there's nothing left for it. And so that, I think, is a really dangerous place for someone who is leading a business to be. Not, like, your entire job as the CEO or founder is to make decisions, especially decisions that other people can't make. And so understanding that as someone with ADHD, this is an area that you need to pay attention to is really important. And throwing your hands up and being like, well, I just can't decide is like, like, I'm sorry, it's not an excuse. I get it, it's hard. I'm with you.

I suffer from this immensely. But you have to find a way to work with it. The final one that I think is, like, so dangerous for entrepreneurs, which is probably not in the way that people are going to think, is rejection sensitivity. We are very sensitive to feedback that in any way, shape or form isn't what we expected. And again, there's two different ways someone gives you feedback that, like, this isn't great. You're like, oh, my God, this is the worst thing in the world. Let me rebuild it and like, oh, I feel bad.

Let me go get a bit more dopamine by building a new offer, right? Or on the flip side, someone tells you that they agree with you and that feeds your dopamine, and you're like, heck, yeah and then you go all in on an idea. And the problem here is we're so sensitive to the rejection or the positive feedback that we don't actually look for the data. So, like, some dude telling you on TikTok that he doesn't think that he agrees with you versus your client telling you there's something wrong with your onboarding process, that's very different data. And we tend to be more impulsive about it. We like, oh, my God, I feel so unhappy. I'm like, I can't believe this person doesn't like me.

The whole world hates me let me just burn my business to the ground or like, I must change everything, right? And we've all been there, like, oh, yeah, like, I wanted to be clear like, I have ADHD. I do all of these things, but I also experience all of these things with clients. And being on the team side of this as well is, you know, you have to be cool, calm, and collected as a leader, you know, and so where we are extra sensitive like this, bringing this to your team, that's not leadership. That's like dumping on them kind of thing.

H: And actually, you can be kind of scary to your team because no matter how independent or experienced they are, when you are chaotic, when you are inconsistent, when you are reactive, when you are absent, you're putting an unfair burden on them. And it's so interesting that we're talking about this, Diane, because the number of people who have said, show me how to simplify my business so I don't need a team now, I understand the last five years have been exhausting. So many of us, especially here in the US are living in a constant state of trauma, like chronic PTSD. And that absolutely eats up a lot of capacity, and I totally get that, and I honor that. And if that is the reason why someone wants to simplify their business, I will help you make that happen.

But to your point, I think a lot of people are feeling like, I don't want a team, I don't want to run a team. I want to scale and we'll talk about scale in a minute. But I don't want to manage people. And I think intuitively, even if they haven't thought this through, is because of these reasons, because we're dopamine seeking, because our executive function is variable, because we get emotionally dysregulated, because we struggle with rejection, sensitivity, and all of that, when you have a team to lead, makes you feel like, I don't really have what it takes to be a leader. I don't want to do that. I don't want to put myself in that position.

G: But the problem is, for ADHD people in particular, you often need the team who can do the thing that you can't do. So I think, look, I think it's really important to start your I want to simplify slash scale journey by asking yourself what it is that you want. How much money do you want to make, how much time do you want to spend in the business, what turns you on about your business and being really clear on that. Because I think in order to scale, and what scale means is not grow. Grow just means something in your business got bigger. So your revenue got bigger, your team got bigger, your number of clients got bigger, that's growth. So the same thing as scale. Scale is growing more sustainably and simply. So it's systematizing things so that you can serve more people, so that you can make more money. It's not just let me go make more money by having another offer.

H: Or working more hours.

G: Or working more hours, or hustling or grinding or whatever it is. It's a considered and sustainable way of growing but it's not for everyone. And if your business, if it's just you and your business and you're making enough money and it's not taking all your time and you feel excited about your business, then go forth and continue on. If one of those isn't hitting like and when I say making enough money, I mean making enough money in your pocket at the end of the day. Not the business is making revenue as a dopamine number. Profit is a reality number.

H: Right.

G: So if it's making you enough profit, if you feel like you have a good split between how much time you work and how much time you don't work, which is an interesting one for ADHD people because you've got all those open loops that you're probably taking into your quote unquote non work time. If you feel like you're doing work that lights you up with people that light you up and they are excited by what you're doing and you're comfortable with all of those levels, you, you don't need to change anything. Yes, you could definitely make your life easier, 100%.

You could make your life easier even at that revenue number, even without getting a team. If you want to scale, you have to compensate for how you have built ADHD into your model. So the same way, if a marketing person wants to grow or scale, they have to think either I have to get real comfortable doing the system stuff myself or I need to get a team. The systems person needs to think, okay, either I need to learn how to do marketing and get good at it, or I need to bring someone in to do marketing for me.

So this is not like an ADHD thing, this is like a scale thing. If you want to scale, you have to understand where you have inefficiencies and what you need to bring in to make that more efficient. It doesn't have to be a team, but ADHD people don't want to do systems either. So, you know, you can't just have this. I just want to do what I want and earn as much money as I want and everyone to just float around me like, I'm sorry, it's just not life. I wish that was the case because I would also like to do that. You know, if I could just read fairy romantasy novels and get paid for it, I would be down like 100%, you know, if I could do Netflix reviews.

H: Actually, what I hear most often is successful entrepreneurs who have done the hustle and grind and they've grown their business, they built their business, they've reached a point where everything's working and they're freaking exhausted, they're on the edge of burnout and they are so resentful of their business, of their team, of their clients, they just want to break the whole thing and what do they tell me? I just want to hire an implementer so I can just be the visionary. You must hear this all the time too.

G: Yes, yes. And like, let's think through that, let's think through that, through those traits. So yes, having an implementer, you can have your dopamine seeking ideas, but your implementer can't implement 47 ideas. So having an implementor.

H: So you still have too decide.

G: You still have to have a decision. You still can't have 47 ideas. Is it going to help you avoid the non dopamine side of things? Yes, but it's still your business, so you still need input. And I also weirdly find that ADHD entrepreneurs are very particular about things in their business that they have no business about. That's like you hired things they don't want to do right. It's so crazy, right? Like how someone who is an expert in the thing you don't want to do does the thing you don't want to do instead of just getting out of their way. And then if you think executive dysfunction, your implementer is literally there to implement what you have decided.

So you still have to decide and then rejection sensitivity. You're bringing someone in who's an expert at what you don't do, who is going to give you feedback on why your business is not succeeding. It is going to ignite your rejection sensitivity. It is going to like, it is going to be fourth of July fireworks because you know that everything's duct taped together. So I think there's this idea of like, if I bring in an implementer, I can just be this creative and just that I like.

H: Yes.

G: And then you bring in an implementer. The implementer wants to pull their own eyes out on day three because they can't implement anything because you won't make a decision. You keep trying to do 17 things, you keep swapping all the time. You won't make a decision. You're not leading them particularly well because you're exhausted and burned out. And you just keep going, you know, just do this thing. And then they try to tell you why what you're doing isn't working and what they think.

H: And you lose your shit.

G: And you lose your shit, you know. And then let's also not forget the other one specifically to team is ADHD entrepreneurs are verbal processes. So your idea of what something handed over looks like is you talking about the fact that you would like to hand it over in your brain. You've said, I think we should hand this over and that loop is closed for you.

That process or thing that you do. No, your team is now doing it. Your team are sitting there going, what I literally have. No, like they, they don't even realize that that's happened. So they're not doing the thing either. So now neither of you are doing this thing. You're frustrated because you handed it over. They're frustrated because no, you didn't. And now you're in this super tense situation.

So I think, you know, the implementer was sold a long time ago. It was very trendy with like, you be the visionary. But like, let me explain like that model because I find that this, everyone gets confused on this. How that model actually works is you have the visionary. So yes, you get to be the visionary. ADHD people, immaculate at being the visionary.

H: Agree.

G: You then give the vision to the implementer. The implementer is now responsible for how that vision comes to fruition. If you are, let's say you're the marketing person. Let's just use that as an example. You are now the sales and marketing person who works for the implementer.

H: That's exactly right.

G: They are going to give you deadlines, goals, responsibilities, systems, structure and that's where it explodes. Yes, because people miss that piece. The only piece they see is like, I get to be the visionary and they'll get everything done. But you are still the head of something in your business. You're still the face of the business and now the implementer who has to implement your vision needs you to do stuff in order for that to happen.

And that's the piece of the puzzle that people don't get. They just think, oh, I'll just get a insert title here, it's usually implementer and I'll just be the visionary. Okay, that works if you also have a head of sales a head of finance, a head of operations ahead of marketing. If you are any of those heads yourself or you're trying, you won't let go of one of those heads. ADHD people seem to be very attached to their numbers as well, even though they hate looking at their numbers.

You have to work for the implementer, you have to do what you're told and you have to be able to be told that what you did wasn't good enough. Like, we are just like slapping all of the ADHD traits all over the place. That's not to say that you can't have an implementer, but you have to understand how the ADHD is built into your model and bringing a non ADHD structure to your business or a slightly reduced ADHD structure is going to change things. And I think that's the piece that people don't realize.

H: No, you're absolutely right. And it's, you know, let's be honest, Diane, we folks with ADHD entrepreneurs in particular with ADHD, really do have a love hate relationship with structure. Some of us love it, you happen to love it. Other people feel it's a necessary evil, give me just enough structure so that I don't want to stab my eye with a fork. And then some are like, I like it in some areas and not in other areas. Oftentimes I have to kind of sell the idea to my clients of more structure as structured flexibility so that there's enough structure that the thing is literally not duct taped together, but they feel some sense of autonomy, some sense of agency, some sense of control and some sense of creative freedom. And I think when it's kind of baked in that way they resent it less. I know you have a lot to say about structure.

G: Yeah, I think there's like this misunderstanding of what structure is. So I always say to people like, oh, oh, you're not a systems person. Oh my God, how did you put your shoes on today? Tell me how you got ready for the day. Tell me how you got into bed like, oh my God, did you not eat today? Like we are dealing with structure and systems all the time. So when people say structure that people think I'm constrained. When the reality is, is what structure is designed to do is exactly what you want. It's designed to allow you all of this capacity to do the things that you're amazing at and that you love to do and less of the stuff that you're not great at or that you don't want to do.

And like, that's the reframe people have to have and like, I also think like structure doesn't have to be a 20 point plan. It doesn't have to be this huge overhaul. So if we think about like dopamine seeking activity, you can still have all of those ideas. But what if you had all of those ideas and you had an idea parking lot.

H: That's what we have.

G: So you have an idea, it's very exciting. You set a timer, preferably a visual timer, so that we don't go and accidentally go into hyper focus and you get to spend an hour getting all the dopamine you want from that idea and you make all of these notes for it and then you continue on with whatever your work is for the day. So now we've ramped up your dopamine. So now hopefully you can do some things that are slightly lower dopamine because we've pumped it up. But also you won't ever lose that idea. But nine times out of 10, I guarantee you that you have forgotten about that idea in six days or less, six minutes, whatever, you've already moved on to another idea.

So this gives you the option to like, hey, once a quarter you can go back through these ideas. Some of them you'll go like, that was genius others you're going to cross the line through. But we haven't invested all this time, we haven't launched the offer, etc. So I like to play with things like that. I also like to build in like sandbox time into people's like business model or calendar. Like where is somewhere low risk that we can play?

H: Yes.

G: What can you experiment with? What can you try? Like maybe, you know, a great example of this is social media. So, like, maybe you're huge on LinkedIn and TikTok is somewhere you're just going to play.

H: That's my plan, that’s my plan exactly.

G: There you go. You see, look how excited ADHD people go when you give them an idea that. But you know what that is, that structure.

H: It sure is.

G: I need you to keep doing LinkedIn the way you're doing LinkedIn because we know that that works. and I'm gonna let you play over here within time limits.

H: Yes, that's exactly right. And also the time of day when I allow myself to venture into TikTok because it's very rewarding for me. I enjoy it a lot. I enjoy it because I keep it time limited because I deliberately choose when I'm gonna go play in that particular sandbox and when I'm gonna get out of it. And I don't create any content on TikTok because then I would turn it into a fucking job.

G: Right, exactly.

H: It's just pure fun and enjoyment for me and a little bit of shopping and that it serves a different purpose than LinkedIn.

G: Yes. And it can develop, it can develop into something like, like you could find yourself, you know, maybe TkTok is a huge market for you all of a sudden. But it like we haven't like put all of our resources into TikTok and gone on board on LinkedIn. We found a way to work with our dopamine seeking. On the flip side, where we don't like to do things because we don't like the repetition. I like to think of things in terms of like minimum viable systems.

H: You speak in my language.

G: And I mean, my favorite example of this is if you try to give a task to an ADHD person and you give them like a 60 page SOP, no, not even a 60. Let's say it's a 10 page SOP, instant revolt. If you turn those 10 pages into a checklist with exactly the same amount of information. Dopamine. Dopamine. Dopamine. Dopamine.

H: Bingo.

H: Because you're ticking things off. So again, it's going what actually needs to happen in this process? Now I have a checklist, I'm ticking off a checklist. I'm excited to tick off a checklist because that's giving me dopamine. Or while I do this non dopamine thing that needs to get done. You might not want to be consistent with your marketing plan. And maybe your marketing plan says you need to post a reel every single day now. Oh, I have to film a reel and I don't want to do it and I'm this and I'm that, and like, now it's like, oh, I want to do it because I want to put the little tick in the box right. So it's all about finding, like, okay, this is the thing that I'm aware of. Like, you have to be self aware with ADHD.

What is the, I don't want to use the word hack. What is the tweak? What is the system? What is the structure that works with that but still gets me the results for, like, executive dysfunction? I always feel, I always am like, I don't know how I have this example in my head because it's not really a thing in South Africa where I grew up. But, you know, when you go bowling with a kid, they have that, like, ramp thing that you put the ball on and then they just like, push it down and it rolls down the lane when they're too little to hold the ball. And then they have, like, the bumpers that come up in the gutters. The kid can't do a gutter ball, right?

That is how you have to think about setting yourself up for decision making as an ADHD person. So the thing that you roll the ball off of, that's like that North Star. Like, what is the thing that we are trying to explain achieve? Can I put the ball on that ramp? If I can't, we don't roll. That's it, the decision's already made for you. And then what are the bumpers that help make that decision? So think of it like, as an if then rule like, if it's less than 50 bucks, then we just pay the money. Now you don't have to make a decision.

If a client says this, then you say that you don't need to give feedback. You don't need to make a decision. If in week two I want to change my ideas, then you remind me that I promised I would stay stuck on this idea for two weeks. So really thinking through how can you, like, bumper yourself for decisions. Because the more decisions you don't have to make, the more capacity you have. The more executive function you have, the more you're able to do the slightly less dopamine things that your business desperately needs you to do. And the more consistent you can be, the better your team can support you, the less frustrated you feel.

Oh, my God dopamine all over the place. For the rejection sensitivity, this is a really difficult one, because this is one that I don't think. And maybe you'll have a better suggestion for this one. But for me, I'm like, how can we build in a pause and not a pause in the moment? So, like, when someone gives you a piece of feedback, how can you say, like, thank you, let me think about that.

H: Yes.

G: Thanks, I'm going to come back to you in 24 hours on that. Can you come back to me in 48 hours when I've had a chance to process that? Because in that moment, we're reacting to the, to the rejection, we're not reacting to the data. If you can just buy yourself a little bit of space to get past that. Like, it's almost like, like we're on a roller coaster and we're at that, like, click, click, click, click bit that goes up at the beginning. That's just awful. You feel horrendous. And like, I have literally screamed, cried and begged to get off roller coasters. I don't do well with them.

H: I don't go to theme parks.

G: Like, but that's where that's where you're at. And what you have to kind of get yourself over is that first initial drop and then you're like, oh, this is kind of fun. The wind's in my hair. I'm spinning around like, la, la, this is great. It's the same thing with that. Like, I'm having a reaction to this. Am I having a reaction because my ADHD is showing, or am I having a reaction because there's data to back this up and I know they're right. And now I'm like, like, am I afraid to do the thing? Am I going to change it? Like, what is that's a much better place to come from. But you need to have, like, put it in your notes app or something. Like, write a few little excuses that are like, hey, can I think about this?

Hey, can you come back to me in 48 hours? Thank you for that input, I'll think about it. So that in the moment, or you, you know that you're not allowed to answer, you just have to copy, paste, copy, paste, copy, paste. Again, we've removed the decision about how you're going to react to that. The decision is made if someone says something to you and you feel sensitive about it, you're going to pause and you're going to paste one of these answers in there. That's non-committal and you can move on.

So when I'm looking at structure. So I only work one on one with people. Everything I do is custom based on what they want, what their business is and how it all fits together. But what I'm looking at is like, what is the thing that you're struggling with? How do we give you what you need at the same time as giving the business what it needs?

H: Bingo.

G: And this works whether you're a one man show or woman show or whether you do want to scale and you do want a team and you do want to learn to lead a team. 90% of the struggle in leading a team is that you're using all of your effort and your dopamine to do all of these other things. And so you have nothing left and then you think, I'm a bad leader and then your rejection sensitivity flares up and then like, it just gets really messy and you're burning out your team. I mean, for me, like, it's one of the clear signs when I go into a business, if the team is exhausted and the entrepreneur isn't…

H: The leader is the bottleneck.

G: Well, it's more like, I bet this person has ADHD. Because if things were working smoothly and then there wouldn't be this disconnect. So if one of you is pumped because you're getting all the dopamine and these people over here are not getting any of their dopamine.

H: And at everyone else's expense.

G: There's frustration on both sides no one knows which way is up. And that's why people go, oh, I don't want to have a team. Because your team aren't being yes men. Your team aren't reading your mind. Your team can't keep up with how quickly your brain works. Like, they can't keep up with 47 ideas. They just can't and so it's kind of like the business. We just want to like, quote, unquote, burn it all down. You just want to go, screw it, let me get rid of my whole team and I'll just be a solopreneur. Okay, who's going to do your systems? Who's going to make sure your clients get what you need? So there has to be that self-awareness of, like, if you're a solopreneur and you don't have a team, you actually need more systems and more structure.

H: Without question and of course they can hire you or someone like you, but it's the self awareness and self acceptance of that ADHD entrepreneur that says this is me. And this is what I need without shame, without self recrimination. It's like, you know, we, we have a lot of wonderful traits, and they come packaged together with some genuine struggles that can F your business up. I think we've done a really good job today of unpacking a lot of that, and you've given us some really good direction about these are the things to be looking for. Your dopamine seeking, your executive function and dysfunction, your rejection sensitivity, and how those things work their way into every aspect of your business. I have one more question for you. Are you ready?

G: Yes. Go for it.

H: Okay. Because we both have ADHD, because we have both been entrepreneurs for a while, and because we work with people like us, we see the strengths and the struggles, but not everybody is like us. So if you had to explain to a neurotypical entrepreneur, an entrepreneur who doesn't have ADHD, they're out there, how ADHD could actually be an advantage in business, what would you tell them?

G: So, I'm sure most people would answer this question with like, oh, but you have so many ideas and you could have the next big thing and it's the creativity. For me, like, I think it is like the grit that we develop having ADHD. And that doesn't necessarily mean, like, grit that we've developed as entrepreneurs, but we have learned in our personal life, even if we don't see it so much in our business, how to cope with the fact that we live in a neurotypical world that expects some very neurotypical things of us that we're not always capable of delivering on. We have had to find ways to make that work for us.

And so when something doesn't work in our business, and I don't mean like within our business, I mean like, let's say an offer is not really working. We aren't going to go, okay, well, I'm obviously just terrible at this. We're going to go well, hang on a second. I know that there are 17 solutions to every problem because I've had to try that many solutions for every problem at school, at college, and a normal corporate job, at home in relationships. And that's kind of something that you can't teach.

H: No.

G: And that's not to say that people who don't have ADHD don't have grit. They will have developed it in other ways. But I think we secretly have also developed that grit in our own systems and structure. As much as ADHD people want to say they hate it, we probably have more systems and more structure to help us survive in the neurotypical world than we're even aware of.

H: Yep.

G: Whether that's how we think about things before we do them socially. Whether that's visual timers, instead of just going, I'm going to work for five minutes. Whether that's knowing that we need a passion project to keep us interested, or, you know, knowing that something's not exciting for us and we need to say no to it. Like we've learned by going to the thing so many times, we have developed all of these systems and structures in our personal lives that can so easily translate into our businesses if we would just allow them to.

H: I love that.

G: Our personal resilience could translate so easily into business resilience.