Staying Strategically Solo as a Neurodivergent Entrepreneur

H: How did we get here, Maggie? How did we get to the point where so many neurodivergent entrepreneurs are saddled with businesses they freaking despise, and they've been fleeced in the process paying for what they thought was good advice. How did we get here? I know it's in the book, but since it's hot off the presses right now, probably not too many listening have already read it.

G: You know, it's a really good question and it's twofold. So on one hand, there is a cultural celebration of entrepreneurship and it is really about building something big. It is about making all the money and doing all the things and hustling our faces off. Like and when you think about entrepreneurship, like, what do you think about? It cuts like the sharks on Shark Tank like, we think about those types of business. We think about brick and mortar businesses. We think about big teams, and that is what is celebrated when the reality is that 80% of businesses in The US are one person businesses. And then the other part is, like, looking at neurodivergence is that type of business is built for a very specific type of person, and that is not the reality for a lot of neurodivergent folks.

Like, they need to build something in a way that works for their brain. And while we could argue a lot of these high profile entrepreneurs are neurodivergent, they may have resources, they have different assets, they have different abilities, and we can't just be like that's the only way to do it. So how do we build something that's actually going to work for us as a neurodivergent person who wants to stay strategically small, who wants to intentionally build a business that is very manageable for them and that actually works for the way their brain works.

H: I think especially now, Maggie, you are in Canada. I'm in the US, but we're close neighbors, and both of us are well acquainted with what's going on right now. My prediction is even though our economy is set to fail because that's what our current administration is doing, but I think it's probably going to drive a lot more people, a lot of new people into entrepreneurship because they're gonna lose their job and they're not gonna be able to get another one. And I would like to think that with resources like your book, your coaching, other sane people who are saying the same thing, that they're not going to start overcomplicating things from the beginning because it just doesn't need to be.

You're right about, the scale or fail notion. I think that is for a very specific kind of person. And the folks that I've met who I think it's appropriate for are folks who know they are serial entrepreneurs. They are comfortable taking risks with other people's money. They are starting something to get out of it at a certain point, and they know exactly when that's going to be. So they are not building some it's like building a house to flip it versus building a house to live in it with your family for perhaps multiple generations. It's a completely different mindset.

G: And the majority of people who start businesses don't start it to flip it. They start the business to be something that is going to be the rest of their career, that is going to be that multi, you know, generational, multi decade home for their family. Yet, we wanna take these tactics of what is most prevalent and be like, oh, I need to hire all these people. I need to do all these things. I need to spend all this money because I don't know what I am doing. When the majority of people who start businesses have skills, talents, and experience, and it can be very, very simple. But I will say, as a neurodivergent person, we're always looking for the novelty, so we wanna add more complexity by nature. We are out there trying to be like, oh, you know what? What am I missing? We're looking for novelty. Guess what? Business is actually pretty boring when you're doing it right.

H: And you're one of the first people I know who's like, if you have wanna have a successful profitable business that won't be something you wanna burn down and get rid of, you need to make it boring on purpose. And at that point in time, ninety nine percent of the folks with ADHD have left the building because they're like, boring. Bitch, don't you know that's a life threatening condition for us? But the spin for me, the way I sell it is if you don't burden your business with meeting all of your needs, your need for novelty, your need for creativity, your need to make a living, your need to express yourself, your need to create community.

If you unburden, if you consciously uncouple your business from those expectations and make it intentionally simple, streamlined, sustainable, then just imagine how you could get those needs met in other ways. And it's like, woah, why is that so hard? I think it's part of this cult of entrepreneurship that you talk about in the book where it's been so glamorized that if you, especially as a female, if you are not an entrepreneur scaling a business, if you're not going for that laptop lifestyle like, you suck.

G: Yeah. And, unfortunately, like, we have this idea that a successful business needs to look a certain way, and that certain way requires an extreme amount of sacrifice when exactly what you said. Like, why are we building businesses expecting them to be the be all and end all? Wouldn't you be happier with just a business you can work on four days a week, six hours a day, and, like, go have hobbies and interests? I'm always prescribing to my clients, not a doctor, but I definitely say as a consultant, I'm like, you know what? Stop. Stop. Stop. You need to go find a hobby.

Like, take up hiking or something okay? Like, become an adrenaline junkie, stop expecting your business to be everything for you. It's like being in a relationship and expecting that person to satisfy all of your needs. It is unrealistic and it's putting so much pressure on something that does not and should not be expected to do that for you.

G: I had such a hard time with this for so long, and I just was really fortunate in that I had people around me because I don't believe solo means alone. You can have coaches, you can have mentors, you can have business friends, you can have an amazing therapist. Like, there's so many ways you can get support in your business. And I had people around me who were like, woah. What are you doing? I was joking with my sister yesterday, and she's like, why do you have the endlessly creative ideas? And I had said, I have ADHD idea edition because ideas are easy for me. But it it's like learning to discern what ideas actually need to see the light of day. Because what I've discovered over my twenty years of being self employed is that a lot of my ideas seem really good and then about forty eight hours, they're really not good. They're actually terrible ideas.

H: Thank you and even if they're not terrible, I think of it this way is I'm an endless ideator as well. Ideation is my number two on my strength finder themes, and I'm just constantly brimming over with new ideas. And, of course, the best idea I've ever had is the one that's at the top of the stack because it has not yet been sullied by real world experience. So it's in its perfect idealized visionary form what could possibly go wrong, and it's just clamoring for expression. In reality, I had to learn as you did because I wasted, oh my god, so much time, so much talent, so much energy, so much money on things that were really never meant to see the light of day because they were novel.

And I thought, oh, because I'm feeling this way, it must be which is why so many people who are infatuated get married to a total stranger. It's this whole I'm feeling this way, therefore and feelings are awesome. I mean, I was a therapist for over twenty years, I freaking love feelings. I still love feelings, but they do not drive good business decisions. We need to be able to tap into our critical thinking and probably develop it because most of us are taught to just follow the herd and not think for ourselves. And you talk a lot about this, not only in the book, but also on Duped, the podcast that you do with Michelle Mazer.

G: Yeah. I love that you brought up the reason people get married so quickly because that magical thinking, that optimism, I mean, when you're an entrepreneur, you have for the most part entrepreneurial optimism. Like you believe in yourself, you believe in your ideas, but then you get into the arena and you start to like have your stuff kinda chip away at you. And what happens is you do engage in kind of that soulmate thinking, that magical thinking, like, oh, this is gonna be the thing. And we're looking everywhere but at ourselves for the answers and, you know, I don't like, confession. I don't think I've ever said this in a podcast. I don't believe in soulmates.

H: I don't either.

G: I feel like it's super flawed. Like, I love my husband, and he's an amazing partner, I wouldn't trade that for the world. But, I mean, I'm not delusional enough to think that there's only one person I could have been happy with right? Like, so we need to stop, like and that is that comes from me. So it's like, what is the business version of that? Like, stop looking for everyone else to satisfy all these things and figure out what's gonna make the business work for you. Because so much of the magical thinking out there is just people trying to sell you shit you do not need.

H: Yes. And it's sort of like, you know, sometimes when people come to me, they'll say, so here's why I wanna hire you. I need a course. I need I'm like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, pump the brakes. Pump the freaking brakes. Tell me why, long pause. Because I and then you'll literally hear an absolute copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of somebody's sales page that they fully internalized and fully believe. And it's like, okay, you don't need a course. Nobody needs a course. If you want to have a course in your business, do you have any idea what it actually takes to be able to sell one and make money. Do you have a following of at least 10,000 people and growing?

G: Yeah.

H: Are you willing to give away half of your gross revenue to affiliates who will push your course on their audience? Are you willing to network with those people so that that becomes part of your norm? Are you willing to have a team? Are you willing to spend money on ads? And all of a sudden they're like, well, this isn't very fun. It's like, yeah, business can be really, really fun when you do it in a way that works for your brain and your life, your stage of life. Like, you live with chronic illness. I live with chronic pain. That's in addition to the neurodivergences and that complicates things too. Plus being at a stage of life, like, if I had two if I still had three little kids clamoring around my feet instead of two aging chihuahuas, things would look different right?

G: And I talk about this in the book of, like, recognizing, like, not just see what season you are in your life, but what season you are in your business because and I talk about these, like, these three kind of modes right? Are you striving? Are you sustaining? Or are you slowing? And for neurodivergent people, our default setting is striving all the time. And, like, we cannot like, that you cannot do that for years on end. Like, it is not reasonable, and you have to be able to look at, like, hey, what is my actual capacity as a human on this planet? And, like, I talk to my clients a lot about things like, we talk about capacity in, the framework of time or emotions like, that's great. What about your sensory capacity?

H: Yes.

G: Like they go to another coach and the that person will be like, you should go to live networking events. And I can see that person, like, it's not even that they don't wanna be in that room. It's that the second they get in that room, it's too noisy. And it's like they're completely gone haywire. So it's like recognizing across all those conditions what's actually gonna work for you. And I love, Diann, that you brought up the course thing.

Because I specifically wrote the book for solo service business owners, and so many of them feel like that is the thing they have to do. But the second I start explaining that your job changes from doing the client work to marketing, and most of these people hate marketing. Oh, you know what? Like, do you have the capacity to be that visible and do that much marketing? Because it is fucking exhausting for a lot of neurodivergent people.

H: And not fun for many others and also depending on where you are in your stage of life. I am an extrovert, I still consider myself an extrovert. But after living with chronic pain for over thirty years and being at the stage of life I am, I don't have the capacity for large events. I don't now when I just came back from a conference, I got my own room, which now is a necessity because I need to be able to retreat from people. Whereas not too many years ago, I saw having a roommate at a conference is not only a smart financial move, but a great way to have fun and have fun in a way that, you know, you can't have in the event. So it's really not everything isn't negotiable.

And the things that we negotiate with at our expense are things that involve energy, capacity, commitment. And also, let's face it we also, as neurodivergent folks, vary widely in our risk tolerance. Everybody who loves to say ADHD is a superpower, these are generally the ones who are privileged. Who have resources, who probably have a very neurotypical spouse or partner who's cleaning up after them constantly. And they have a high level of risk tolerance because they're impulsive as fuck, and they're gambling with other people's money. That is not the lived experience of the vast majority of neurodivergent entrepreneurs, especially those who are not cis white males.

G: Yeah. And I feel like we don't talk about, like, I always say, like, to my clients, like, this advice wasn't built for you. And when I say this advice wasn't built for you, I mean, generally, as a woman, generally, as a neurodivergent person, and then add in all the other identities that they hold. The reality is most business advice is written by and for middle aged white dudes with a shit ton of privilege and I'm married to one, I get it. But, like, that is not where you should be taking your cues because whether you have a chronic illness or small children or, you know, you've been trying to get pregnant for three years or whatever it is that you're dealing with, that is not advice that's actually gonna be helpful. And I love that you brought up the risk tolerance like, they have a spouse that's cleaning up after them. It's very real. I wish I had a spouse that cleaned up after me. He's neurotypical, and he's, I'm still cleaning. What's happening?

H: Yeah. Well, yeah, we won't go too far into the feminist consciousness and but I'll tell you what, it's that women are burdened with a lot of identities and a lot of roles. And as a former therapist, I often talk about role strain. Because we literally and, actually, one of my most loved blog posts is about how disappointed I was that Dolly the sheep didn't come through for us because I wanted to be able to clone myself so hardcore. And it's like, that's what we're honestly trying to do. The whole toxic entrepreneurship that you talk about, the hustle culture, it is a culture that is made by and for men who have other people.

Who are doing the things that they're not good at and especially if you have ADHD, a lot of the things that trip us up when our business becomes too complex are the things that challenge our executive functions, one. And most of us don't really love managing people. And so I love that you talk about it's either in chapter one or chapter two that, you know, okay. You think you need to do this and you think you need to do that. Now let's just you might, I mean, you know, let's unpack it. But you do realize that when you decided to go into business, especially as a creative service business owner, which a lot of your clients and mine are.

They just wanna do more of what they love, and then they grab on to this notion that they have to scale. And you're like, you do realize that you won't be doing what you love. You will be trying to get other people who don't love it as much as you do to do it as well as you do. How does that sound? And they're like, fuck that.

G: You know what, though, Diann? It's the same thing as what we were talking about a minute ago. Like, when you're gonna launch the course, how your job becomes marketing, when you start and you get into like, I'm not talking about, hey, I'm a solo business owner, and I sometimes collaborate. Like, I'm a designer and collaborate with a copywriter, I love that. But when you were at the point where you're like, hey, I'm gonna start hiring employees. I'm gonna start building a micro agency.

Great, I have a micro agency. But you know what? I also understand that my job in that agency is leadership. It's not doing the actual client work. I do some consulting work you know? I approve things. I give feedback. But for the most part, my job is not doing the creative work. It is literally leading. It's delegating, its feedback. And if you don't have the appetite, let alone the patience for that, it is not for anyone, zero stars do not recommend accidentally falling into that because that is where so many people are just like, that's it, I'm burning my business completely to the ground. It's over.

H: A hundred percent. As a matter of fact, two of my clients right now came to me with the intention of streamlining, simplifying their business so they could grow it. And then in the midst of the first few weeks working together, they had a life changing event. And we're like, you know what, backup, I want to get rid of the team. I want to stop being an agency. I wanna just go solo. I wanna figure out the thing that I do uniquely well and I can do just that in a flexible way based on my new circumstances. And I'm like, now we're cooking with gas, because that is so much easier. And sadly, because of all the things we've been talking about, many people who reach the realization that that's what they actually want, and get to the point where they're like, you know what? This actually works better for me. It, unfortunately, usually happens after a burnout or a life changing event where they feel like they have no choice, as though you have to be backed up to the fucking wall and sliding down into a heap before you can say, this is what I prefer, and it works for me.

G: You know, it's so interesting because I have a client who's no longer a client, which is good news for her because she had had a micro agency, and she was really successful and doing really, really well. And I admired so much when she came to me, and she just said, you know what? I'm not burnt out. I'm not she's like, I just don't want this anymore. And I feel like that is an underrated skill as business owners to say, you know what, this is not for me anymore. Because it's we get so caught up in the idea that we're quitting, we're letting people down. Oh my god. We created businesses so that we didn't have to follow those rules. So why do we keep following those rules?

H: I talk about this so much that I'm sure people are sick of it already. But the reality is that being self employed is a bold choice. Choosing to be your own boss, even though if you are on social media, you really feel like every other person is doing this, they're not. Making the decision to be the source of your financial security is frankly an audacious choice. But the real missed opportunity that oftentimes it takes a burnout or two to realize is, you know, this really does mean that you're not only where the buck starts and stops, you get to do all of it your way. That you don't have to follow any rules other than, you know, spend less than you make and don't do anything illegal or unethical.

But there's so much missed opportunity in customizing the business to actually suit you. And I can't talk about this enough and I know this is the hill you're gonna die on as well. One of the things that comes to mind when I think about you is that you've been doing this longer than a lot of people we both know. You've been doing it for twenty years, and I have a couple of follow-up questions about that. But also, you've been working from home long before it was fashionable and long before it was fucking necessary.

G: I don't like real pants, Diann.

H: I mean, I was like, you're gonna be surprised what's on my lower half right now.

G:: 2005

H: We're in the no pants brigade. But, you know, I know that you have known for a long time that you're neurodivergent. You've always known you were different. And you were lucky enough to have a very good therapist who said, yeah. But you made an important choice, and I think it is related to why you have been so good at fashioning your business to fit your brain and your life. The decision you made about whether or not to get diagnosed with ADHD based on the meaning of that to you. Can we go back to that moment?

G: Yeah. I was in a therapy appointment, and she just kinda looked at me have you ever. I mean, you know, the I remember it so clearly because it was the end of my just towards the end of my appointment, and it was like the wrap up, the payment that and I was looking for my car keys. And all my friends for years have joked about this. They're like, you are one of the most organized people I know, which has always been a coping mechanism. Like I can tell you exact location of the batteries and the like, I have overcompensated my entire life for the things by being ultra organized. But my car keys, God, where are they?

And she was like, has anyone and then the next appointment, I came back, and we talked about it. And she was like, well, you can have the psychoeducational assessment, I said, it doesn't change anything. And I said, do you think I need the psychoeducational assessment? She's like, no. You're doing just fine as is and I was like, great. I'm gonna carry on. And then, you know, from there, I've learned more and more about how all anxiety, depression, learning disabilities, how it's all kind of, you know, commingling.

And it doesn't it hasn't for me changed anything. I don't need someone else to tell me what's going on. And I also think there's something that really, there's so much discussion about, like, do you have it if you've been formally diagnosed? I have the financial resources to get diagnosed and where I live, it is not inexpensive, but I didn't feel like I need that. And I don't I feel like so many people don't feel like they legitimately have ADHD unless they diagnose and, like, this bullshit. Because so many people the same way I talk about starting a business, like, I was so fortunate to have a partner with benefits and all of these things. So many people don't have those privileges. So, like, we need to stop it being like, did you get finally diagnosed? Why does it fucking matter?

H: Yeah. It's not a private club. You can't buy your way in with a gold card. It's like we every single one of us neurodivergent neurotypical or any point in between. If we're going to be sustainably self employed in any kind of business, it would be really smart to know who we are, and how we are, so that the decisions we make are in alignment with that, instead of opposed to it. Because I think about it, you know, you would have been successful without ever realizing you're neurodivergent, I probably would have been successful without ever realizing I was neurodivergent. The difference is and that's because we both hold a lot of privilege.

However, it means you're probably going to get where you're going or close to it. But it's like having a rock in your shoe. You'll get where you're going, but it's going to be fucking painful every step of the way. And you're always going to wonder how much longer you can do this, because it's painful. So I love that you were able to say, you know what, that's interesting information. But I think I'm already using it and I don't need anyone to validate me. What I'm curious about is because you've been in business for twenty plus years, you've understood how to work with your neurodivergence even before you knew you frickin' had it. Was that like your your family background? Is it just a personal trait where you have been able to really see yourself and accept yourself and not look for someone else's validation of what you already know? Because that holds so many people back.

G: I was very successful when I worked in a corporate role. I was great. But, I mean, I see now how the neurodivergence and the introversion and everything else was playing out. And I was so different than my coworkers in a good way. Like, they were all talking all the time and then they would be like, you haven't said anything. And then I'd be like, here we go. I would be…

H: I was one of the ones talking all the time.

G: But I mean, you know, in client services, I think sometimes too, like, the things that make us different from other people actually make us really great at it. Like, I'm very introverted, I know it's hard to tell when I'm on a podcast, but I'm definitely, like, a deep listener. And that means when I'm listening to a client, like, I'm really listening. I am really, I'm not just like listening to respond and that means I'm able to come back with a different approach on things and that doesn't mean someone else is doing a bad job. I'm just doing it differently and I think recognizing those skills and abilities where we have them when we are working with our clients, when we are doing creative work, when we are trying to do, you know, give it somewhat advice and guidance, like, that is an asset.

H: This is one of the most important kinds of conversations that I have with clients, because I think it's not a matter of can you be self employed with ADHD, or autism, or Audi HD, or dyslexia, or dyscalculia, it doesn't matter. Can you be? Of course you can, many of us are. But the missed opportunity, like we were saying before, is not only being able to be successful in spite of, but it is being successful because of which to me requires like two parallel tracks. One is identifying your limitations, your weaknesses, your executive functioning deficits, all those kinds of things. And either outsourcing or, you know, getting help and support for those things, automating, whatever. But the other part is, each one of us has gifts. Each one of us has abilities.

I don't like the term superpowers. But each one of us has things as a direct result of our neuro divergence, you just named one of them. For me, the ideation and the pattern recognition means if someone says, no, tried that won't work. That doesn't really suit me. I will generate 10 more ideas before they finish accepting the one I just offered so that's a gift. Was it difficult for you to feel like, okay, I know I'm different, I've always known I'm different. I really fucking hate someone telling me what to do. Same, even if I'm going to have a punishingly difficult time figuring out what to do instead, I will do it my way, damn it, I refer to it as being stubbornly self reliant.

And I have learned that there are times that in fact, probably more often than I admit that I'm really getting in my own way. And I really would be better served energetically, emotionally, financially to ask for help, and not argue with the person that's honestly trying to help me. But you know, you figured out kind of how you needed to do things your way. Was it harder for you or easier for you? Or it just came right along with it that you realized, actually, my differences are gifts, and they're valuable and leveraged in business.

G: You know, I think what's really interesting is I don't think I ever really clocked it. I was just like, this is how I am. So I don't know that there was a, you know, strategic decision made. I was just like, well, this is how it is, so we're just gonna roll with it. And I really appreciate, Diann, that you brought up the whole superpowers thing. That really rubs me the wrong way because I always say, like, when my executive functioning is dysfunctioning, it's not cute.There's no superpower there.

I am a disaster and most people never see that, but the people that do, they're like, this is this is for real. But I think the thing about the self reliance, like, I am honestly, like, it is to my own detriment, and that is one part, you know, fleas of my childhood and then one part, like, just know I'm gonna do it my way and, like, learning to ask for help, learning to get support where I need it, learning to admit that I do need support. I mean, I'm literally but and it's taken years, therapy, all kinds of things.I literally like, I remember there's a time years ago, I cut myself in the basement, my husband was asleep and I spent so long.

So long. I was, like, trying to decide if I needed to go to the hospital. Then I was like, I can't wake him up. But I'm like, but he is the volunteer fire chief. So if I phone 911 because I'm bleeding out, and it turned out I want it under control, but I was like, I literally would be the kind of person, like, my arm gets chopped off, and I wouldn't wanna bother anybody. And it's not that I feel like I'm bothering us. I was like, I'm always like, I can figure it out. Put the arm over the car. We'll be fine. I'll drive with one arm.

H: Same. And people think, you know, why are you know, yes, there's trauma. We learn to be self reliant because we didn't have a choice so there's that. You can really tell when you're talking to someone with ADHD who doesn't have childhood trauma because honestly, you know what? For a while, I wouldn't say I envied them, but I would be very wistful. I remember specifically a couple of people that I've interviewed on the podcast, which is coming up on its fifth podversary, I can't really freaking believe. But one woman in particular, and then there was another one later on, who I realized she was so much like me, Maggie, in so many ways, but absent the childhood trauma. And her life has had a much easier and more joyful trajectory.

And I remember after that call, I was kind of freaking speechless for a couple of hours because I realized I was having, like, a grief response that wow. And the thought that was running through my head is that's who I would have been if I'd been adopted into a different family. Well, you know, there's nothing we can do about the past. I'm Buddhist, I've learned nonattachment. But it was something that later, and I think you would agree with this, led me to think, but then without the struggles, I wouldn't have become so resourceful, so resilient, so determined, so confident in my own thinking and my own decision making and my own, instincts and intuitions. And all of that was a direct result of the shit I had to wade through and I think you would agree.

G: Also, I'm good in a crisis. Who doesn't like somebody who's good in a crisis?

H: Right? It's a learned skill.

G: It is a learned skill.

H: You're not naturally good in a crisis unless you've experienced a lot of crises.

G: Yeah. And what's interesting is, like, early on in my career, I was in PR and I had to deal with some crisis PR. People were like, you're like this 20 kid, and like, not even breaking a sweat. Like, we've got situation, this is serious and I was just like, totally unbothered. Everyone was like, what is wrong with you? Like and you know what like, that is an asset. Like, in any as much as I would like, it's easy to be wistful and be like, I wouldn't be me, and I wouldn't be great in a crisis, and that still serves me in an ongoing basis. You know, people in the last couple of weeks have been worried about economic meltdown. Naturally, I am but, like, I'm just like, whatever. It'll get figured out.

H: And you know that you will figure out what you need to figure out. And that's one of the other hard things that I think probably both of us have in the people that we work with is that they have to be willing to take action and take risks and make mistakes, so that they can learn what I call dancing with failure. And they can learn not that you want to have catastrophic life altering financial disasters. But that if you're not going to ever believe that it's okay to make a mistake or fail, unless you actually make mistakes and fail. And when you don't die as a result, and you're not, you don't go in a complete irrevocable downward spiral. You're like, okay well, that I like to say, well, that was unfortunate but here we go.

And it's not how many times you fall down, it's how many times you get back up. Something came to mind I wanted to ask you a couple minutes ago. What would you say to the person who says, well, okay, yes, you're not a real business owner. I know you address this in the book. And they would say, you know, unless you have a team, unless you have a business that is moving forward, when you're not working in it. You don't have a real business, what you have is a job without benefits. Now, I know you're gonna have a killer response to that because you've heard this too.

G: Are you for real? Like, literally, my response at this point is, like, are you for real? Because that’s the Diann catchphrase. Like but, like, literally, are you for real? And, I mean, I do talk about this in the book where, like, I have been doing this for twenty years, and it used to be people would be like, where where's your office? Where's your office? And then the pandemic happened, and no one has asked me where my office is since. The things I can get away with now that I could never get away with before. I mean, there was some upside to the pandemic that were unexpected. But we all anyone who's self employed, like, there is no need to even answer, entertain, or indulge those questions at this point because that's a them problem.

Like, when are you gonna hire employees? I don't know, are you gonna pay for it? Because the majority and I keep coming back to this. The majority of businesses are one person businesses. That is the reality in the North American market. The majority of business owners don't start their business to make all the money. They start their business for the freedom and the flexibility. And, like, so for us to constantly be having to justify our existence is madness. And, honestly, those people don't know what the fuck they are even asking you. They are just trying to make conversation, and they're doing it badly.

H: They don't have the numbers. You have the numbers, you quote these numbers. In fact, you are the person I learned these numbers from when I interviewed you the first time, I think, episode 192 or 6, I'll link to it in the show notes for people. But it was like, I didn't realize that more than 80% of small business owners are soloists and that it's a totally legitimate choice. And it has been for decades before we had this Internet based entrepreneur culture and the industry that tells us just like the diet industry, the beauty industry, it's kinda like asking people when are they getting married or having kids. That is so nineties conversation. Just shut the fuck up. Don't ask people those things, and don't ask them when they're hiring a team.

G: And you know what? The entrepreneurship conversation is very like diet culture. It is you know, it's always about, like, what is wrong with us? What imperfection are we fixing that we are not enough as we are? And when you start a business, you don't you're not indoctrinated into that. It happens. It seeps in over time. You read books by these bros. You're taking in the content as you're scrolling social media. And I think recognizing, like, this is not for me, and this is actually an entire industry that is designed to make me feel bad about myself and make me feel bad about my business and, like, I'm not enough. When there is so much research out there, like, you know, there's always that conversation.

I know you and I have talked about this before, Diann. Like, the 6 figure business, the 7 figure business, are you like, again, are you for real? Are you okay? Because the majority of businesses and I I'm not saying you can't do this. You absolutely can. But the majority of businesses don't ever make more than a hundred thousand dollars a year. They don't, ever. Yet everyone is sitting around feeling bad for themselves. And I always say to clients, I'm like, a, do you give a shit about that? And b, if you had a corporate job, how much would you be making? You're still making more, and you work half time. Stop it.

H: We gotta unlearn a lot more than we need to learn.

G: Absolutely. And I feel like if I, as the author of this book and with everything I'm doing, podcasting and everything else, if I can help people start to pick apart that stuff that they've picked up along the way, I mean, my work here will be done.

H: It's almost I mean, you're much too young, Maggie, to be claiming this as a legacy project. But in a way, it's like, because you've been in this for a while, and because you are a content creator, and while introvert, you express your thoughts and feelings in a lot of different ways through writing, through speaking. It's like this thought leadership that over the last several years has been distilled into staying solo as a strategic choice, resonated so much with me even before we found ourselves in the same online communities, and even before we got to know each other, and actually just spent time in person six weeks ago.

Because it's like, this works for my brain. I didn't even know when I first started listening to your message that you are also a person with neurodivergence, which makes so much sense now that I do. But one of the things I love about the book, and again, I'm only in two chapters. And I mentioned to you yesterday, the reason why is that you've been able to get that far is because my doctor kept me waiting for an hour.

G: Thank you doctor.

H: Yeah, no, actually, I'm happy about it. One of the things I love most about it, is that the way you set it up is very friendly to neurodivergent people. And it's like, it's everything is consistent, the way you run your own business, the way you help people run their business, even the way you wrote and offer this book is like, there is no right way to consume this book. Even if you just look at the cover, and see staying solo, your guide to building a simple and sustainable service business. You know what, in the back?

Nice photo, by the way, some people would say, this is enough, because all they needed was permission to do what they actually want to do. Other people can go in and pick and choose, you don't have to read from front to back, you give people permission in the beginning, like this book is your guide. There is no right way to do it. Drop in, stop in, figure out what you need to figure out, come back when you need more. But if you need the entire road map and how to do it in addition to permission to do it, that's there for them too and I love that.

G: For pointing out the instructions in the front of the book because that interestingly, that was not there originally. But one of my very good friends who is autistic, she said, I know you really well, and I know most of your people are neurodivergent. And we talked that through, and that was such a great suggestion because it is meant to be a guidebook. So what do you do with a guidebook? You write in it. You flip back and forth.

H: You know spill coffee on it.

G: You spill coffee on it right? So I want it to be something people can continually go back and reference where versus something they sit down for, you know, the six hours they read the book and they're like, okay, that was good.

H: Shelf help.

aying, oh, it's gonna be like: 2008